I changed my stance on gun control!!!

[RDKirk]

I am very pro-gun control. The more restricted the supply, the more difficult it is for people who would do ill with them to get their hands on them.

I am no less worried about people who are willing to kill or maim me with any other types of weapons. Or even with fists. I'm an old man...one solid blow to the head and I will be permanently mained...very possibly killed.

 

[RDKirk]

The fact that the 'lethality' can vary by as much as a factor of 2.5 seems to have avoided your attention. Double the mass, double the energy. Do deer in your part of the world wear 3mm steel plate armour?

You seem to think that's an issue, considering that you keep repeating it. Why, exactly?

 

[Bradskii]

That would depend on whether or not your target was wearing armor. High penetrating power is both a blessing and a curse - the majority of the damage done by a bullet in a body is caused by the bullet tumbling around inside as it loses energy/bounces off of bones. If the bullet retains the energy to maintain a straight path through you (i.e. if not slowed down by distance or armor plate), it actually will cause relatively little damage as long as it doesn't directly hit something important.

Maybe we should check with the guys who have to try to put people back together:

'When a patient is shot by an AR-15, it "looks like a grenade went off in there."

A bullet with more energy can do more damage. Its total kinetic energy is equal to one-half the mass of the bullet times its velocity squared. The bullet from a handgun is---as absurd as it may sound---slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic.

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.'

That from the link posted earlier: What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body

And gee, look...there's that equation again. And don't you think it would be pretty dumb for the military to use ammo that would cause 'relatively little damage' if it didn't hit something vital. Me? I'd want something that would look like 'a grenade went off in there'.

 

[Bradskii]

You seem to think that's an issue, considering that you keep repeating it. Why, exactly?

Because either you weren't aware of it or you didn't understand it. Because of comments such as 'the .223 is not a very powerful round'. Its power, or energy, is entirely dependent upon mass and velocity. And both vary in a .223 so that comment made no sense. And the ones that you can buy yourself that are the same as the army uses will turn your organs to jello and leave an exit hole you could put your hand in. Not lethal? Used for varmints? Well, if you shoot your varmints at a half kilomtre range and they're hiding behind steel plate...

I've never even fired a gun and it seems I know more about this than you do.

 

[disciple Clint]

RIght, we should enforce the laws we have and there should be big penalties for being a straw buyer. That's how guns get in the hands of criminals. That and theft.

well you were right on theft. who would have someone buy a gun at full retail price when they can get one on the street for far, far, less either way if they were not supposed to have a gun they still get a gun. The solution is to make the penalty for illegally having or using a gun a true deterrent.

 

[Jamdoc]

I used to own a bunch of guns. I ended up in a situation where I could not store them so I end up having my lawyer dispose of them.

After 5 or so years of being gun-free, I became more sympathetic to the gun control crowd. I had no guns but I felt pretty safe anyway with 911 only minutes away, where I live so easy for police to mop up the criminals.

Recently I heard a question asked.....Who do you call when the police are criminals? Then I read a quote by Washington the said (paraphrase) There should be a rebellion every 20 years or so.

That made me think of the context the Constitution was written in. We need law-abiding citizens to own guns because we have a right to self-defense. Whether it's from a criminal or a totalitarian government, we need to be able to overthrow the government if need be. That is what Washington was saying.

I don't think we are anywhere near the point where we need to rise up, but we need to be able to if we get some Fascist in office suspends the Constitution or tries to dissolve our rights.


We have 2,000 laws about guns. No more gun laws......Agree or disagree......

Discuss.........

some people live 20min+ from the police being able to respond, and some people like to be in the outdoors where if a wild animal attacks them unarmed? 911 probably won't make it, if they can even get reception to call 911.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Too many different versions of what Gods Word
actually is.

There's only one Word of God.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

what do you mean? abortion laws, gay marriage, being drunk ( in many cases is not illegal either unless there are certain other factors with it. There is nothing lawfully to keep people over a certain age from sex with whomever they wish ( as long as that other people is at or above the age of consent as well.

So you're saying Romans 13 is wrong? Do you think a law that protects gay people from discrimination is not of God? Or do you think that God would rather that gays be discriminated against?

 

[renniks]

Seems like you are determined to ignore the physics. Remember mass x velocity squared? Didn't see diameter mentioned anywhere.

I'm not ignoring anything. I would much rather have at least a .243 if shooting something the size of a deer... it is about knock down power. If someone is trying to kill you, you want a round that stops them now, not one that can go straight through with minimal damage. Of course with perfect shot placement, even a .22 bullet is lethal. But for stopping someone charging at you? Why would you not want to maximum impact? How many bullet wounds have you examined?

 

[rturner76]

some people live 20min+ from the police being able to respond, and some people like to be in the outdoors where if a wild animal attacks them unarmed? 911 probably won't make it, if they can even get reception to call 911.

I mentioned something like that in a post. In a rural area, they are essential. You don't know if there is a wolf or something else. Plus many people use them on a daily basis to hunt. For some people it's their main source of meat.

 

[renniks]

Well, how lethal it is depends on the numbers you put into the equation, doesn't it. Do you know how it works? And I still don't see diameter mentioned anywhere. And I think that if a standard .223 can bust through 3mm of steel plate at a half a kilometre then it could well be described as 'astoundingly lethal'. If you're using this for domestic defence then I think the term 'overkill' is applicable.

Where would you keep it? Under the bed? Or maybe your neighbourhood punks call ahead so you can unlock it from your gun case and get it loaded. 'Is 10:30pm good for you?'

For home defense, it would be hard to beat a 12 guage with 00 buckshot. You don't need precise shot placement when you have several .38 sized balls spreading out.

 

[renniks]

A heavier slower bullet will stay in the body of even large game at times. That means all of its momentum is transferred to the animal

Which is what you want. How many bullet holes have you examined in deer? I can see a significant difference between the ones I shoot with a 30.06 vs the .243. my daughter uses or the 30-30 my son uses. Hit the bone and the 30.06 will have an exit hole you can put your fist in.
The 30.06 is still considered by many gun experts to be the most versatile round ever. Bigger lead, more knockdown power. Just like the bigger guy hits the hardest.

 

[RDKirk]

Because either you weren't aware of it or you didn't understand it. Because of comments such as 'the .223 is not a very powerful round'. Its power, or energy, is entirely dependent upon mass and velocity. And both vary in a .223 so that comment made no sense. And the ones that you can buy yourself that are the same as the army uses will turn your organs to jello and leave an exit hole you could put your hand in. Not lethal? Used for varmints? Well, if you shoot your varmints at a half kilomtre range and they're hiding behind steel plate...

I've never even fired a gun and it seems I know more about this than you do.

You didn't answer my question. What difference do you think the lethality of the .223 makes such that you're particularly fearful of it?

 

[RDKirk]

For home defense, it would be hard to beat a 12 guage with 00 buckshot. You don't need precise shot placement when you have several .38 sized balls spreading out.

People like to say that, but I'd disagree. At residential indoor distances, the spread of a shotgun is only two or three inches from wall-to-wall--that still requires pretty accurate aim. The recoil is substantial enough to keep most people from bringing it back on target quickly, most people will have had much less opportunity to train frequently with it, inasmuch as there aren't as many shotgun ranges.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which is what you want. How many bullet holes have you examined in deer? I can see a significant difference between the ones I shoot with a 30.06 vs the .243. my daughter uses or the 30-30 my son uses. Hit the bone and the 30.06 will have an exit hole you can put your fist in.
The 30.06 is still considered by many gun experts to be the most versatile round ever. Bigger lead, more knockdown power. Just like the bigger guy hits the hardest.

Yes, that is what one wants with game. A .223 round is also moving much much faster and does significant damage to the tissue it interacts with. You do not want that when hunting either. The problem was that you misinterpreted stopping power as lethality. They are not the same thing. Going back to the Rittenhouse case. A .22 would have gone all the way through his arm if it did not squarely hit the bone.. The damage would have been minimal. From a .223 the damage was so bad that without a tourniquet that becomes a fatal wound. That is what one wants when varmint hunting. One is not going to eat the meat so most wounds being fatal is ideal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You didn't answer my question. What difference do you think the lethality of the .223 makes such that you're particularly fearful of it?

Velocity which results in terrible damage to tissues.

 

[RDKirk]

Velocity which results in terrible damage to tissues.

If I have to stop someone who is a danger to life or limb of myself or my family, that's what I want. Reliable "stopping" does not occur without terrible damage to tissue.

So my question is still: What difference do you think the lethality of the .223 makes such that you're particularly fearful of it?

 

[Astrid]

There's only one Word of God.

So some say.
But thats not what i was talking about.
There's 40000 different Christian sects each with
a different version of what the Word actually means.

 

[Astrid]

No more than this one. It just looks more scary.

So harmless Looking

Google Image Result for https://www.gormogons.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/rifle.jpg

 

[durangodawood]

For home defense, it would be hard to beat a 12 guage with 00 buckshot. You don't need precise shot placement when you have several .38 sized balls spreading out.

Thats what my ex cop neighbor recommended for me.