I Challenge all Believers to...

Ana the Ist · May 22, 2014

Lollerskates said:
I am thinking you are mixing prayer with treating God like a Djinn/geenie - whose purpose is to grant wishes. That is not prayer. And, when Christ said ask and you shall receive, He wasn't talking about magic, and he wasn't talking about wanting God to grant wishes. That is not finding the truth to stop praying; it is cutting off your nose to spite your face. God most likely will be disappointed someone would stop praying to Him, in the same way a father or mother would be if their child stopped speaking to them for a year - just to test the magnitude of their abstractions with physical tests.

When I did the "challenge," I was without hope. And, I thought my science background would fill the void and vindicate whatever questions I had about Him. Quite the contrary. I stopped receiving peace, love, contention, wisdom, and protection in the abundance I had it with God. I also eventually ran back to Him, and learned what prayer is really about (and stopped asking for things.)

I didn't really mix anything. The definition of prayer I used is easily the most common one, and certainly the one I see used the most by christians here on CF.

When you did the challenge...you were without hope. That presents a problem as you're basically admitting to bias before you even start. You can't really know if you stopped receiving all those things because you stopped praying...it could've very easily been the natural response to feeling hopeless. In order to do this challenge...you need to be in a normal state of mind. You're basically saying you were depressed when you stopped praying...and all of the good feelings you associated with prayer were gone. Well of course all your good feelings were gone...you were depressed.

Ana the Ist · May 22, 2014

znr said:
I have, unknowingly, taken the challenge several times--if we're counting VERBAL prayers--I consider those that pass through my mind to sometimes be involuntary. In all cases when I stopped verbally asking for things I needed (and wanted: money, food, "stuff") did not stop showing up, but my level of peace and calm was negatively affected--I became more fearful and skittish than usual. During the periods of time I stopped praying I didn't experience any other lack.

What I'm curious about is why (if at all) it matters to you whether we pray (for stuff)? How does your challenge affect your life directly?

It's occured to me that you're just passing time and this thread is like part of a hobby to you--which is not an accusation at all.

That's a really honest answer. So, basically, none of the outward expressions of prayer changed (it wasn't as if all the things you would normally pray for stopped happening) but the emotional gains you receive from prayer (calm, peacefulness, etc) did disappear.

Just out of curiosity, do you think those emotional gains that you receive from prayer are something that god affects? Or do you think they are just your natural reaction to praying (as in, it makes you feel calm and more relaxed)?

Yea...you're about right on your assessment of why I started this thread. It's a mild curiosity to me, that's all. One of the things that I think most atheists experience when they abandon their belief in god is that they expect "something" to happen. You're told your whole life that god affects you in so many different ways...you're not really sure "what" will happen once you stop believing, you just have a sense of "dread" (I suppose that's the best word for it). I think this is because most atheists still doubt whether they are correct around that time they realize they don't truly believe anymore...it's not an easy thing to let go of something you've believed in your whole life up to that point, some doubt still remains.

Of course, once a little time passes and you realize that nothing has changed at all...that sense of dread gets replaced with something that almost feels like validation. You knew you had no reason to believe in god, you knew that belief was irrational, and you let it go. The fact that nothing changed, nothing bad happened, the sky didn't fall, you didn't grow devil horns, your mom didn't get sick and die....everything is the same as it was before. It's that good feeling you get when you know you're right.

Lollerskates · May 22, 2014

Ana the Ist · May 22, 2014

Lollerskates said:
I think that I will just leave you alone. I have tried to eloquently explain my experience concerning your hypothetical, but you seem to know more about Christian minds than the Christian.

Have fun with the OP.

I definitely think something is getting lost in translation here. Everyone who responds seems to want to play semantic games with the word prayer...once those are done they want to claim they've already "done the challenge".

I'd really just prefer a believer say they just don't want to try the challenge and why rather than try and play games. I flat out admitted I'd never been to church in the challenge to atheists , and I explained why I didn't think it was a good idea. Imagined if I had answered that challenge by arguing what the definition of "church" is, then when it's clarified for me, I explain that I'd already been to church for six weddings and four funerals.

It would be pretty obvious to all that I was just dodging the challenge.

Lollerskates · May 22, 2014

Ana the Ist · May 22, 2014

Lollerskates said:
Most of us "Christians" have enough to deal with besides entertaining a hypothetic faith game. It is real for us, not a phantom of philosophy. You have been told multiple times what prayer is - if you have misunderstood it, or other believers have gotten it wrong, it doesn't take from the entire vocation of prayer.

Your challenge is only good for luke warm, fickle believers, or philosophers. No Christian would even entertain your challenge voluntarily because there is too much to lose. And, I don't mean money, cars, houses, children, etc.

Well, you believe there is too much to lose, but you wouldn't know it unless you tried the challenge.

Besides, it's not as if you're unable to start praying again at some point.

peaceandquiet · May 22, 2014

Ana the Ist, maybe you should just stop? No true Christian is going to do this.

DiligentlySeekingGod · May 22, 2014

peaceandquiet said:
Ana the Ist, maybe you should just stop? No true Christian is going to do this.

znr · May 23, 2014

Just a warning, it could get rambling from here on out. But I'll try to explain myself best as I can. I think the emotional gains are part psychological and partly effected by God. We could debate for years which came first - chicken or egg. One thing to note, most believers agree that joy is distinctly different than emotionalism. We'd say that joy comes from being connected with ("The") higher power (God / Christ), and that regardless of whatever outcome from our prayers for stuff, we retain a basic hope, or joy, which God provides already as a benefit.

To explain my POV, since you're asking - having the hope of Christ effects an emotional gain which is inherent in this connection (because God made it this way) and which wouldn't otherwise be attainable without the connection. I think the part where our minds are responsible for those emotional gains is God given to some extent as a means to support us, sort of like a safety net.

If you've ever observed, for example, a Pentacostal type service, this would be a great example of assigning, sometimes, too much emotional gain to prayer. And then in other denominations, you might see the opposite.

Anyway, that was rambling. Sorry. But it's an interesting question and I figure since you're here asking, despite that you say you're only remotely involved with the discussion, there must be some deeper interest or you wouldn't have bothered.

Ana the Ist said:
That's a really honest answer. So, basically, none of the outward expressions of prayer changed (it wasn't as if all the things you would normally pray for stopped happening) but the emotional gains you receive from prayer (calm, peacefulness, etc) did disappear.

Just out of curiosity, do you think those emotional gains that you receive from prayer are something that god affects? Or do you think they are just your natural reaction to praying (as in, it makes you feel calm and more relaxed)?

Yea...you're about right on your assessment of why I started this thread. It's a mild curiosity to me, that's all. One of the things that I think most atheists experience when they abandon their belief in god is that they expect "something" to happen. You're told your whole life that god affects you in so many different ways...you're not really sure "what" will happen once you stop believing, you just have a sense of "dread" (I suppose that's the best word for it). I think this is because most atheists still doubt whether they are correct around that time they realize they don't truly believe anymore...it's not an easy thing to let go of something you've believed in your whole life up to that point, some doubt still remains.

Of course, once a little time passes and you realize that nothing has changed at all...that sense of dread gets replaced with something that almost feels like validation. You knew you had no reason to believe in god, you knew that belief was irrational, and you let it go. The fact that nothing changed, nothing bad happened, the sky didn't fall, you didn't grow devil horns, your mom didn't get sick and die....everything is the same as it was before. It's that good feeling you get when you know you're right.

grasping the after wind · May 23, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
You said this...

"Pretty much it is yes. If I have an actual need I pray and the need is satisfied. "

Maybe you didn't think about it very hard, but no...this isn't the way it works. If you have a need, for example you're hungry and need to eat, you don't pray and food magically appears. You, just like everyone else, get up and either make yourself some food or go and buy some. I don't think you'd claim that god is delivering food to your doorstep, nor would I believe you if you were claiming that. Of course, maybe you also have a different understanding of the word "need". I was using it to refer to things that you actually need.

You seem terribly sure that this isn't the way it works and terribly sure that my statement about my own life experience is wrong because I did not "think very hard" about it. For someone that thinks so highly of absolute proof, I find your proclamation of superior knowledge about how my prayers work in my life lacking in evidence to back it up.

Your challenge seems to me to be the flip side of the joke below. You seem to want all of us Christians to take the attitude of the man in the joke and seem to find it impossible to believe that we would not. [FONT=times new roman,helvetica]God granting miracles

A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religious man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."[/FONT]

I know you can't help everyone. Part of being an adult is knowing how to prioritize the important things in your life. While you may not be able to personally help each person who asks for help in your life...you can help some. As for praying for the others, I wouldn't worry about it much. You can always come on CF and ask the people here to pray for those you can't personally help. I know this because I've seen others do it many many times.

It is surely not appropriate to use the phase "part of being an adult" as if you are advising a teenager when addressing an actual adult.

You said, "To see if I know what?". I thought this was pretty obvious. To see if your prayers have a noticeable effect on your life. I'm sure you believe they do...but here's your big chance to "know". Also there's no need to thank me in helping with your understanding of prayer. I'm always glad to help, and if you accept my challenge you just may understand even more!

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that I am interested in proving to myself, to your satisfaction, what I feel totally comfortable is true to my own satisfaction. I have no doubt about how prayer works in my life. I am very comfortable with it and I am not much swayed by the fact that you really, really think I ought to have doubts about it.

Ana the Ist · May 23, 2014

peaceandquiet said:
Ana the Ist, maybe you should just stop? No true Christian is going to do this.

Ahhh...the ole' "no true christian" bit. I wondered when that would pop up.

Ana the Ist · May 23, 2014

grasping the after wind said:
You seem terribly sure that this isn't the way it works and terribly sure that my statement about my own life experience is wrong because I did not "think very hard" about it. For someone that thinks so highly of absolute proof, I find your proclamation of superior knowledge about how my prayers work in my life lacking in evidence to back it up.

Your challenge seems to me to be the flip side of the joke below. You seem to want all of us Christians to take the attitude of the man in the joke and seem to find it impossible to believe that we would not. [FONT=times new roman,helvetica]God granting miracles

A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religious man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."[/FONT]

It is surely not appropriate to use the phase "part of being an adult" as if you are advising a teenager when addressing an actual adult.

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that I am interested in proving to myself, to your satisfaction, what I feel totally comfortable is true to my own satisfaction. I have no doubt about how prayer works in my life. I am very comfortable with it and I am not much swayed by the fact that you really, really think I ought to have doubts about it.

That's fine, really, I get that some people are comfortable with just believing. As for myself, I'd rather know something than just believe it...especially if it's something I can check.

peaceandquiet · May 23, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
Ahhh...the ole' "no true christian" bit. I wondered when that would pop up.

What do you mean by that?

I'm serious. Jesus tells us to pray, and no "challenge" from a stranger who doesn't believe in God is going to sway us. That's absurd.

DiligentlySeekingGod · May 23, 2014

peaceandquiet said:
What do you mean by that?

I'm serious. Jesus tells us to pray, and no "challenge" from a stranger who doesn't believe in God is going to sway us. That's absurd.

I agree. I'm not going to accept a challenge from anyone, non-Christian or not, to disobey God and turn my back on Him. That's just not going to happen. And you are right, a genuine Christian would never do that. What genuine Christian would want to forsake God and turn their back on Him? The answer, none.

Ana the Ist · May 23, 2014

peaceandquiet said:
What do you mean by that?

I'm serious. Jesus tells us to pray, and no "challenge" from a stranger who doesn't believe in God is going to sway us. That's absurd.

Yea, but it's not some rule where if you break it you go to hell. If you forget to pray tomorrow, what are the consequences? Have you forsaken god? Of course you haven't, you simply go back to praying the day after and it's as if nothing happened. So what's the difference if it's aday or a year? It's not going to matter to god...he's "timeless" after all, right?

chi_cchick · May 24, 2014

I've gone about six years without going to church and praying. The quality of my life has deteriorated. I'm looking forward to returning to my hometown and attending my original church. Not going to church has been one of the worst decisions I've made.

Ana the Ist · May 24, 2014

chi_cchick said:
I've gone about six years without going to church and praying. The quality of my life has deteriorated. I'm looking forward to returning to my hometown and attending my original church. Not going to church has been one of the worst decisions I've made.

That's a rather vague statement. How do you know if your life deteriorated because you stopped going to church or if you stopped going to church because your life deteriorated?

chi_cchick · May 24, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
That's a rather vague statement. How do you know if your life deteriorated because you stopped going to church or if you stopped going to church because your life deteriorated?

Because my life wasn't very good before I started going to Church. There is a God sized hole without him and other believers.

pyramid33 · May 24, 2014

Ana the Ist said:
Go one year without attending church or praying. I'll explain...

Another poster on this forum made a similar thread where he challenged all non-believers to attend church one Sunday. I think that he thought it important for everyone to step out of their comfort zone and test their beliefs. What he didn't anticipate, me course, is that most non-believers have been to church and in some cases...they still do. It made me wonder just how many believers would be willing to try something similar?

Something I used to see a lot on other forums where flaming and personal attacks are more common, is a situation where atheists and christians will end up accusing each other of being "close-minded".

I appreciate the enthusiasm.

However, my post is for all people to utilize the church buildings and gain in every way possible. For the good of course. God forbid I toot my own horn, yet I sense false representation of intent doesn't do those interested in the truth, any good.

I enjoy fellowship. I enjoy camping. I enjoy hearing messages that encourage me. Surely that is not bad for people.

pyramid33 · May 24, 2014

chi_cchick said:
I've gone about six years without going to church and praying. The quality of my life has deteriorated. I'm looking forward to returning to my hometown and attending my original church. Not going to church has been one of the worst decisions I've made.

The promise is true, "draw nigh unto God, and God will draw nigh unto thee."

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