I believe OSAS -BUT-

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The Bible is clear and that is all we need.

Why do equally informed people hold opposing views then? And please don't just say that anyone holding a different viewpoint to you is wrong - that wouldn't answer my question.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

Blessings
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)
God saves us through our believing he saved us. If you think you can lose your salvation, you cannot believe he saved you.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0

lsume

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2017
1,491
696
70
Florida
✟417,518.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

Blessings
Once you have been sealed, you cannot be unsealed until the day of redemption. Meanwhile, should you drift, there is a very unpleasant punishment waiting. Perhaps this is one reason that God has a very specific time set aside to awaken each of His elect.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟825,826.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

Blessings
I use these scripture to address this arguments, but there are other scripture if you want:

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).


Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:


Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.


The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.


The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.


Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
20,687
4,359
Scotland
✟245,440.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us (1 John 2:19)

Hello. It's very important with new converts and seekers to make sure they fully understand and accept the gospel.

A rigorous membership process can be good in this regard. An interview where you share your testimony in front of a panel of elders and deacons is a good thing IMO, where they can ask questions of you and you of them.

I have known several people who have been said to have 'left the faith' but I don't believe that they were in the faith to begin with. God Bless :)
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,625
7,387
Dallas
✟889,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hello Friend of, since we know that the Lord does not contradict Himself, what do we do with a passage like this one (that speaks so directly to this topic) if what you believe is true?

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to me and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

Thanks!

--David

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

.

The word comes or cometh in that verse is actually only used in the present and imperfect tense. Meaning the one who presently and continuously comes to Him, He will not cast out. Let us not forget that He also said “anyone who doesn’t abide in Me will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.” No one can abide in Christ unless the have been drawn by The Father.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Navair2
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,167
3,992
USA
✟630,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
From the start what do we have? "Speculation". And yes as fun as that can be.. its not wise to run with. This can go anywhere and it still will not be truth.

Well we look at a moment in time.. He does not. We only see the flesh and then judge.. He does not. Some believe you can walk away some believe you can't. Each shares their view and.. back to square one.

Were babies, children in a world that is not the real realm. So many can not see the light and how to get out. We don't see the heart (Samuel)
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

Blessings
I believe in OSAS, but I differ with most on when salvation takes place..... You are saved when there is no more chances to sin or apostatize.

If one has in there mind, that they can commit sin or stop believing in the future.....they cannot called themselves saved now... For they only have an idea of salvation obtained by a collection of thoughts verified by deeds and backed by like minded believers......not actual salvation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ah, but what if one does cease believing? What then?
Can one who has seen a plane, later stop believing that planes exist? The same is true of one born from above. Once truth is revealed, you cannot unsee it.

Once given the code to the door, one can no longer say that they are locked in....and the lock is biometric, so no keys to lose or combinations to forget.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Navair2
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A rigorous membership process can be good in this regard. An interview where you share your testimony in front of a panel of elders and deacons is a good thing IMO, where they can ask questions of you and you of them.

I have known several people who have been said to have 'left the faith' but I don't believe that they were in the faith to begin with. God Bless :)

What would be the purpose of this panel of elders? What would be the outcome if the words of the speaker are believed or not believed? And how would this help those that would leave the faith?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I believe in OSAS, but I differ with most on when salvation takes place..... You are saved when there is no more chances to sin or apostatize.
If one has in there mind, that they can commit sin or stop believing in the future.....they cannot called themselves saved now...
Under the circumstances you just outlined, no. Under those circumstances the person wouldn't be saved in the first place and the issue of OSAS would be moot.

For they only have an idea of salvation obtained by a collection of thoughts verified by deeds and backed by like minded believers......not actually salvation.
:oldthumbsup:
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The OSAS doctrine does not believe someone can lose salvation through Apostasy. Do you believe Apostasy results in a loss of salvation?

Hebrews 6:4-8 is very clear that some who became enlightened, who were partakers of the Holy Spirit, can fall away (apostatitize - parapipto in the Greek), and cannot be renewed again to repentance, because it takes belief to repent, and they lost their faith completely - and the end result is to be cursed and to burn.

Repentance is necessary for salvation Acts 3:19, Acts 20:21.

Jesus taught some believe for a while and then fall away, in Luke 8.

Paul wrote that he would become a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh.

In fact Paul writes to believers in the church at Corinth to make sure they aren’t reprobates:


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


He warns that some of the church that think they’re in the faith can actually have become reprobates.


The word reprobates is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which becomes important in the verse where Paul himself says he has to subjugate his flesh (the flesh is worldly desires to sin) daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he himself end up a castaway.


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.


The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek.


Paul said he would end up a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.


Paul never taught unconditional eternal security - in fact he taught the opposite.


Paul makes clear that AFTERwe have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Navair2

May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all
Nov 18, 2020
407
215
58
Somewhere west of Chicago.
✟36,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Do you mean that people who disagree with you are lesser informed perhaps?
Well, that depends on what one means by "lesser informed".

Am I better than they are in some way?
Not in the least.

Stand back and think about it objectively.
We know from God's word that He is not the author of confusion.
So then...

A) Who is?
B) Does everyone who professes Christ actually have His Spirit in them?
If so, then why the confusion in doctrines and the differing denominations?

C) How much effort are those who profess Christ actually putting into obeying 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Peter 2:2?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
some people backslide for a while but impossible to just turn away once you been saved

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 But (IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light), we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.



The prodigal son.


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who *were dead* in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.


In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.


Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed GROWS, and results in new life (salvation) but then it withers and dies.


Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.


Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...


Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.


Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.


Notice above, they *received the word with joy*


To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:


1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the wordin much affliction, with joyof the Holy Ghost.

Unconditional eternal security is bogus.
 
Upvote 0

Navair2

May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all
Nov 18, 2020
407
215
58
Somewhere west of Chicago.
✟36,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?
Read Matthew 13 a few times.
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,501
45,436
67
✟2,929,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
The word comes or cometh in that verse is actually only used in the present and imperfect tense. Meaning the one who presently and continuously comes to Him, He will not cast out. Let us not forget that He also said “anyone who doesn’t abide in Me will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.” No one can abide in Christ unless the have been drawn by The Father.
Hello BNR32FAN, we know at least four things about the group of men/women who are ~given~ to Jesus by His Father.

1. ALL who are given by the Father WILL come to Jesus.
2. NONE of those who come to Him will ever be cast out.
3. NONE of us who are GIVEN to the Lord Jesus by His Father will ever be lost.
4. ALL who are ~given~ to Jesus WILL have eternal life/WILL be raised up on the last day, as this is the will of the Father.
The second half of v37, which is stated by the Lord both as a 'comfort' and as an 'assurance' to all of us who are ~given~ (that we will never be cast out) does not change any of the facts above (as if what was said by the Lord in the second half of v37 was meant to be taken as a warning of some kind instead).

While it's certainly true (at least by implication) that none who ~come~ to Jesus will ever be lost, what the text makes clear (first and foremost) is that NONE who are ~GIVEN~ to Jesus will ever be lost :preach:

God bless you!

--David

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has ~GIVEN~ Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

Blessings

You don`t have to be OSAS to believe your salvation is secure. Jesus said "my sheep know my voice" and
one of God`s elect will not become Apostate.I think in your heart you already know you could not do this.

Your stance is very reconciliable.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Navair2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
20,687
4,359
Scotland
✟245,440.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What would be the purpose of this panel of elders? What would be the outcome if the words of the speaker are believed or not believed? And how would this help those that would leave the faith?

Hello Raymond. The purpose would be to identify if the candidate for membership had heard, understood and responded to the gospel.

People need to hear why they need to be saved and how they can be saved.

Strange as it may seem I think that's an issue in the church in our day, there are people in church circles who are not saved. When they drift off or crash out they haven't lost their salvation, because they had no idea how to be saved or why they needed to be saved in the first place. God Bless :)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0