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Featured I believe OSAS -BUT-

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by friend of, Nov 19, 2020 at 9:15 PM.

  1. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

    Blessings
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I think you're noticing that you don't actually believe in OSAS.
     
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  3. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I think it might be a bit of denial, not schizophrenia though.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The OSAS doctrine does not believe someone can lose salvation through Apostasy. Do you believe Apostasy results in a loss of salvation?
     
  5. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm going to have to go with Yes on that one...
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Then I think you may not be a believer in OSAS :)

    I agree with you on Apostasy and that it results in a loss of salvation. The term is NOSAS.
     
  7. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    i think that once saved always saved is true but it is equally true that sin is not saved so if you live a life of sin you are not saved in your sin but saved from a life of sin. Sin dies in other words.

    This practically means that if you have faith in Jesus till 36 and then you fall away then up to 36 you are saved, and there after you will loose your life in unforgiven sin. So God restores what unbelief killed at a later date. That is why Jesus says i will raise you up on the last day.

    Isaiah 57:1-4 explains nicely how sin can kill righteousness within us and take its place.

    Hebrews 4:12-13 explains that the word will cut out of our spirit what sin has grown there. Good new for those who have a true faith and are struggling against their sins, not good news for those who think once saved always saved, so let sin abound.

    Peace.
     
  8. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello Friend of, since we know that the Lord does not contradict Himself, what do we do with a passage like this one (that speaks so directly to this topic) if what you believe is true?

    John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
    All that the Father gives Me will come to me and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

    Thanks!

    --David

    John 6
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
    38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
    39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
    40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

    .
     
  9. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you David. Those are great verses. But what about the verses that say stuff like Paul did when he said "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Why would he say he has kept the faith if he couldn't lose it? Seems like an unnecessary thing to add in lieu of OSAS because keeping the faith should be a given. Also, what about the parable of the true vine, which talks about how those who do not remain in are cut off?

    What about Hebrews 3:14?

    for we are become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end

    And I apologize about not being able to break down the verses that you presented an offer defense for my position in exchange. I hope you'll forgive me I'm not that good at this debate kind of thing. Thanks again sir.
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Breifly...OSAS is a false docrtrine, but the perfect doctrine of the devil for these end times.

    Satan says...Come one, come all to easy salvation, have your cake and eat it too. No reason to do good anymore, just kick back and enjoy the ride, and go to heaven when its done...I promise. /s
     
  11. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because, just as you suspect, you absolutely can loose it. Don't be decived by tricky and deceitful explanations of God's word.

    John 5:28Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
     
  12. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ah, but what if one does cease believing? What then?
     
  13. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Meditate on Jer 32:40

    Jeremiah correctly predicts that the New Covenant to come would uniquely involve the Holy Spirit of God sealing the salvation of believers by the "Spirit of the Fear of the Lord" (one of seven Spirits of God listed in Isaiah 11)

    No more falling away...
     
  14. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello again Friend of, if someone stops believing, then Biblically, their claim of coming to saving faith in Christ at some point earlier in their lives should be regarded (sadly) as nothing more than that, a "claim".

    Perhaps the principle proof that someone is a true believer is found in the fact that they persevere in the faith (albeit, imperfectly) until the end. Those who do not preserve (because they were not preserved in the faith by the Lord .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25 cf Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25), were ~never~ saved, were ~never~ true believers from the get-go, no matter what they may have claimed (and perhaps even believed) at some point in their lives .. 1 John 2:19). They never knew Him .. e.g. John 17:3, and He never knew them .. Matthew 7:22-23.

    Also, it's important to take note that the "I LOSE NOTHING" from John 6 is the Lord speaking to us from His perspective, not from ours, so unless you believe that He was exaggerating, or that He perhaps did not know what He was saying when He spoke those words, then it seems to me that the only thing left to think is that there truly are both wheat AND tares in the church, some who truly are sons of the Kingdom, and others who truly are sons of the evil one (who were planted in the church by the devil) and are not saved .. e.g. Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43. (even though they may honestly believe that they are, as we just saw earlier in the Judgment scene .. Matthew 7:22-23).

    God bless you!

    --David

    1 John 2
    19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020 at 3:38 AM
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  15. Hmmm!

    Hmmm! Well-Known Member

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    Because churches and equally proficient scholars are divided on this question I would say that we can't know for sure. I thibkt we can only make our minds up for ourselves. If someone is constantly anxious about losing their salvation it's probably better for them to adopt a OSAS viewpoint, and if they're not it's won't matter much either way so it would be more constructive to focus on doing good works.

    My own view is that you can lose salvation but only if you really work hard at it. You'd have to make the decision that you no longer want to carry out our human vocation of reflecting God's image on Earth anymore and spend your whole life trying to do that. I don't know why anyone would want to do this but we have free will so it's within our power to do so.
     
  16. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is not probation.
    Eternal life is not temporary life.
    Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
    No and's if's or but's.
     
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  17. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    That's not OSAS. It's a work-based salvation, claiming people need to keep themselves saved by remaining faithful.

    If you wanted to make the claim salvation can be lost by our own desires, you should point out the passages which describe steps how we recreate ourselves back to our old nature, since a born again believer literally becomes a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 4:24). You should also point out all the passages where we haggle a price with the Father that is greater than the sacrifice of His own Son to allow us to purchase ourselves back from Him, since we are not our own, but have been bought by Him (1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 7:23).

    These steps would be required to legally remove ourselves from the Father's hand.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. That's not OSAS so it would not be consistent to claim it is.
    2. OSAS is not taught in the Bible.

    Matthew 18 - "forgiveness revoked" seen at the end of the chapter.

    John 15:1-10 "branches in Me" that are removed and cast in the fire

    Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith... you should fear..for if He did not spare them neither would He spare you".

    Gal 5:1-6 "you have been severed from Christ, fallen from grace"

    Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"
    Ezek 18 "forgiveness revoked"

    true that.

    The Bible is clear and that is all we need.
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The question there is whether or not he ever really was saved. We onlookers cannot know for sure, although we make judgments based upon that person's actions.

    belief in OSAS and, also, in the ability of an APPARENT believer to apostacize are not irreconcilable. OSAS and an actual -- and final -- renunciation by a saved person later in life are irreconcilable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020 at 9:02 AM
  20. UnpopularOpinion

    UnpopularOpinion New Member

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    Most likelly the person was not Christian in first place
    no it's impossible to turn away for good , God would rather kill you before that
    some people backslide for a while but impossible to just turn away once you been saved

    You can post these verses you have trouble with
     
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