I believe in Jesus, but I cannot accept some mainstream Christian beliefs.

[Kal Perry]

Let's quickly define the word hell as used in our above scripture. Strong's #86 Hell Greek is Hades it means "UNSEEN" "it corresponds to Sheol in the O.T."

Well then what about Sheol? UNBELIEVABLE, when I look it up in Strong's it says see hell, seriously can you believe that to translate a Hebrew word I must look up an Anglo-Saxon word (HELL) in the Greek language. This is foolish scholarship! Did you know that prior to 725ad the word hell did not exist? in its earliest renderings Hell, hele meant to cover, thus "UNSEEN". It was not until the dark ages and after that Hell took on this more provocative term, of demons and tormented flesh etc. Did you know that Greek Mythological Hades and paganism, agrees closer to Hell and it's torment than the Holy Scriptures?

Some might challenge my understanding of hell as erroneous, not considering "Gehenna, The Lake of Fire, The Bottomless Pit and Perdition! I would be all to glad to write of these as well but first this must be understood!

How about lets stop this foolishness and I give a proper definition of Sheol and Hades based on scripture: Ecc. 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not ANYTHING...."verse 10 "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave."or (Sheol)

Since it has already been established that Hades is nothing more than the Greek word for Sheol and this word clearly means unseen an imperceptible, then how does Christianity get torture torment and everlasting fire? In two words Brian, Augustine and Justinian. Church Fathers of Catholicism known as "scholars and theologians" men of depraved minds and completely unscrupulous. This also is a bigger understanding than you can receive right now, but again I would love to write it.

Back to our parable: Luke 16:23

Verse 23 clearly says that in HELL he lift up his eyes, wait a minute, are you telling me that the Bible is lying, cause seriously if this man is in hell/hades/Sheol then I am pretty clear that there is NO work, NO devise, NO knowledge, NO wisdom in this place, (See ECC. 9:5 as quoted above). Does the bible lie when it says that the Dead do not know anything at all? How could he lift up his eyes being that there is no work nor devise?

Furthermore, let us not forget that this parable is being told by Christ, and before the Resurrection! furthermore has it registered in your brain yet that the rich man is supposedly being punished and condemned before JUDGMENT day, how can this be? I think I need a scripture and verse to believe that we are judged and condemned before judgment day. Do we as Christians not think anymore or do we just concede are ignorance to the "SCHOLARS," the blind leading the blind....

So why would Jesus tell this parable? why to rile the Pharisee's you see! Verse 24 makes it plain enough that the rich man is related to Abraham he was a JEW he was a chosen vessel by God therefore in his lifetime he received "GOOD THINGS" or GOD THINGS, the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, the Jews were a covanted people, but Lazarus was not a Jew, he was a Gentile servant of Abraham and at one point Father Abraham even thought that this Lazarus was to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant see Genesis: 15:1-4, this is where Christ formulated His parable from. Read it:

Therefore this man known as Eliezer, in the Hebrew , actually translates Lazarus in the Greek and certainly you can see why Jesus indicated that this Lazarus had nothing in his life, but you as a Jew had everything! They had God, Abraham, Isaac,Jacob and all the prophets.

Verse 26 is not a depiction of Christianity's fabled hell, but God who has blinded the nation Israel that they could not see, therefore they cannot cross the gulf. The New Covenant was guaranteed to leave the Jews out but not because Jesus willed it but because of their own rejection of Christ.

Verse 27-28 this Lazarus wanted to go tell his 5 brothers (symbolic of all Israel) that the Jews were loosing their covenant place with God. Numerically in the Bible the number 5 represents GRACE and MERCY! I reckon Jesus knew how to tell a parable!

Verse 29 Abraham says "they ( the JEWS) have Moses and the Prophets: let them hear them." Jesus was clearly referring to the Torah and all the Prophets who all testified of HIM, as no Gentile had Moses or the prophets, these were Jewish leaders.

This ignorant rich man believed that if someone came back from the dead they would repent, that is believe in Christ and not loose their Covenant place with God, but Christ makes it really clear, "if they can't hear Moses or the Prophets then neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead".

Jesus could not make it more clear, He was telling this parable to all the people especially the Pharisee's and he was insulting them to the highest degree by telling them they were loosing their rightful place with God and furthermore it was being given to their enemy, the Gentiles. Certainly the Pharisee's understood what Christ was saying even though 2000 years later Christians still can't figure it out!

To use this scripture to prove eternal suffering and torment in the fire's of hell is pure ignorance on scholarship, it lack's creditability and ANY FORM of agreement with the original Greek.

This is just one way that AUTHORITIES have perverted the Words of God, it is not I who "WREST" the scriptures, but men who were long ago ordained for this condemnation Jude 1:4 and the Christian world is drinking their Kool-Aid, only today we call them Theologian Doctor Scholar Pastor, and when they are really ignorant we call them Evangelist or worse yet Prophet, PROFIT!

Luke 16 is not to be taken literally. It is spiritual and it was absolutely a warning to the Jews! No other interpretation is needed!

We can continue believing in Mythology if we want to, certainly it makes for a good read, but I think the scriptures are clear when they say "know the truth and the truth will set you free"!

Look at verse 30 ....but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. and Jesus answered 31....if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Can it NOT be seen that Jesus was in reference to Himself? How many Jews do you think have converted to Christianity? NOT MANY in fact hardly ANY! Oh, I know well the Messianic Jewish movement, it is mostly Christians wanting to be Jews not Jews wanting to be Christians, again it is more indulgences of the carnal mind and the flesh.

We have converted more Muslims and Buddhist than we have Jews, why? I'll tell you why, because of Romans 11:32 "For God has concluded them (JEWS) ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL." So who is going to SAVE the Jews? GOD

"And so ALL Israel shall be SAVED....For this is my covenant with them, when I shall TAKE AWAY their sins."

Are the Jews going to perish eternally in HELL for their denial of Christ? NOT SO! ALL Israel will be saved and NO where in the scriptures does it say that "only" the righteous Jews will be saved, in fact, the bible says that there are none that are RIGHTEOUS, no not one.

Consider it this way, in 1945 Hitler was torturing and mutilating Jews by the millions. after they suffered some of the most horrendous acts of sadistic punishment, not to mention starvation and sick and twisted experimentation of every kind, they were hurled into an incinerator and gassed! Almost none of these Jews if any received Christ. Let us not forget that Hitler was doing this abomination because he believed this was the Divine will of Christ! Crazy but true! you won't hear that preached from behind the pulpits!

My question is this? Why does Mainstream Christianity teach, by doctrine, that these poor suffering Jews would die an insane death of torture and dismemberment and then be handed over to God who mercilessly condemns them to hell for their "REAL PUNISHMENT" eternally? That is sick and twisted and mainstream Christianity has twisted and perverted the scriptures to back up their FALSE DOCTRINES of eternal torment. If only some of those Christ forsaken Jews would of believed Hitler then maybe they would not be burning in the flames of Hell right now! Sounds crazy doesn't it, that is because it is, but nontheless that is ultimately what many as Christian are saying. Yes I know that's not quite the way it comes across, instead they really are saying it is God's will, and that makes it BLASPHEMOUS. And they hide like cowards behind their sacred doctrine.

When Jesus was dying on the cross he looked down on his murderers and said "Father FORGIVE THEM for they know not what they do" Luke. 23:34

Mark 2:10 says "That ye may know that the Son of man has power on EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS."

Were these murderers forgiven? Of course they were forgiven, and if you believe differently than that you must pervert the scriptures. Not only did these Jews not believe in Christ but they crucified Him to death and His crime charged against Him was BLASPHEMY!

,Matthew 12:31 says "ALL manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men but the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 but whosoever speaks a word against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven Him, neither in this AGE nor in the AGE to come."

Here we go again into the AGES. this scripture does not mean that there is NEVER forgiveness eternally. but rather that there is NO forgiveness in THIS AGE, the AGE OF LAW, nor in the next age, the AGE OF GRACE. that is to say that after the age of grace, it is possible for forgiveness.We are currently in the age of Grace. And in this AGE their is NO forgiveness to those who forsake Christ but in the next AGE forgiveness may be obtained.

You might be asking what is the age of Law and the age of Grace, it is; the Old Testament the age of Law, and the New testament, the age of Grace. Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven in either of these two AGES!

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the FULLNESS OF TIMES He might gather together in one ALL things in Christ...."

at the consummation of the ages all things will be gathered together IN Christ. this scripture is not saying "all those who believe in Christ and them only. Sadly that is what the Church doctrine teaches.

Philippians 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

There are three realms here Brian, Heaven Earth and Under the Earth. These are spiritual realms: The heavens are the Sons of God, the Earth is symbolic of all those carnal minded Christians and under the earth is symbolic of the wicked. The book of Revelation is the same although it says the Heavens the Earth and the Sea, the Sea ultimately representing the lowest realm. That is why I said that the beast from the sea is not the Antichrist but the Roman Empire and the beast from the earth is false Christianity.

Brian their are many AGES and these ages are not eternal, everlasting, or forever as is taught by Christian Orthodoxy. It is to their shame and their foolishness that they are deceived.

Yours in Christ,

Kal

 

[Der Alte]

As Dr. Strong so intelligently pointed out this was ETERNAL HELL FIRE to punish the damned! well now we have a real theological question on our hands, and that is the word HELL was not a word until 725ad! First problem, and the second problem is this, HELL is not a Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic word, no in fact it comes to us from merry old England and the Anglosaxons.

This is an irrelevant argument. For example the word "Bible" is not in the book we call the Holy Bible. The concept of "hell" as understood by modern readers is certainly described in the N.T. The concept of a place of eternal, unending punishment was taught by the Jews before the time of Christ. They used the word Gehenna to describe this place.

Last problem with this definition is the word eternal, does not mean eternal? ahh you say are you mad? NO i'm not mad. The word Eternal is translitersted from the Greek word AIONIS and Strong's says this word means:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Wow! I am Really not making my case here to well am I, with out beginning with out end etc, that sounds like eternal to me, how about you?

O.K. our answer, AIONIS is the adjective of the word AION, which is the noun form. According to Dr. Strong the word Aion means TIME in it's unbroken duration. So it is time or timed, not endless, yet it is tranliterated some 50 times as never evermore eternal and forever these words all imply endless time, and that is not possible, for AION to be in it's correct noun form.
[ . . . ]
So how could an AION, (noun) mean time within a duration and AIONIS it's adjective mean endless time? is not endless time the antithesis of time? The simple truth is that it can't mean both time and endless time, not only Der Alter in English is this true but also in Hebrew, Greek or any other known language.

Only the Authorised Versions of the bible is this word written as loosely as this, if you would read the YLT or the CLNT or some such literal version they would render this word as "Age During or perhaps Age Lasting. My guess is that is why you used the word AIONIAN in your comments when you wrote to me?

Thank you for this gratuitous but irrelevant discourse on the Greek word "aionios/aionion." I don't rely on various translations. I first started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were in Germany and I studied it formally at the post grad. level about 2 decades after that and I don't see any credible Greek scholarship in this discourse. Here are several Greek language sources which disprove your argument.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of aijwvnio" in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, aijwvnio" evidently carries certain implications associated with aijwvnio" in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”). For a more temporal use, see Rom. 16:25; Phlm. 15.

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, always, is distinguished from its Indo-European parallels (Lat. aevum and Eng. aye are cognate) in that it is thought of not so much from the point of view of an abstract period of time as from the point of view of the time in which one has lived. In Hom. aion is often parallel with psyche, soul, life (e.g. Il. 16, 453); in Hesiod (Frag. 161, 1) it denotes a life-span, and in Aeschylus (Sept. 742) a generation. Thence it can mean the time which one has already lived or will live, i.e. it can relate to past as to future. It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing. 126

 

[Der Alte]

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting

LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi"; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri"=a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I bc] eij" crovnon aij.; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 (cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva, contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio", of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.) Hb 13:20. eujaggevlion Rv 14:6; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (=eij" tou;" aijw`na") 1 Ti 6:16. paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16. luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12. klhronomiva (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav (opp. pro;" w{ran) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) kovlasi" aij. (Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. pu`r (4 Macc 12:12.—Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 (v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva"). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21 al.; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36 al.; 1J 1:2; 2:25 al.—D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 (cf. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 (cf. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18.—carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

Rev. 11:15 does not mean forever and ever, what pray tell is the second ever, since the first forever meant all eternity? You cannot have a pluralality of eternities, FOREVER AND EVER, you understand right? so this scripture really says AIONS of the AIONS or ages of the ages, in our english, oh I will accept EONS of the EONS since you are partial to EONS.

I assume you did not read my explanation of Rev 14:11, the phrase &#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;/eis aionas aionon is further explained by the phrase "they have no rest day and night day and night."

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the &#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957; torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.​

Also you seem to be totally unaware of the Jewish practice called epezeuxis, that is reduplication of words for emphasis. There are hundreds of examples of epezeuxis in both testaments.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

“Lord of lords,” Deu 10:17; Psa 136:3
God of gods, Deu 10:17; Jos 22:22; Psa 136:2; Dan 2:47; Dan 11:36.
King of kings, Ezr 7:12; Dan 11:36.
Amen, Amen, Num 5:23; Neh 8:6.
Amen and Amen, Ps 41:13, 72:19, 89:52.​

When we study the Bible objectively, instead of picking out a few verses, here and there, we find that the Jewish writers of the Old and New Testament, used many figures of speech to explain and illustrate their writing. One such figure of speech was to reduplicate, repeat, certain words, for emphasis, such as “King of kings, Lord of lords,” etc. This figure of speech even has a grammatical name, Epizeuxis. We see from Isa 45:17, and many other O.T. verses, that “for ever and ever” makes perfect sense.​

Back to our scripture on Matthew 3:12 this "unquenchable fire" is not HELL, it is the HOLY SPIRIT read verse 11 it says ...He shall baptise you with the HOLY GHOST and with FIRE, this is what will purge the threshing floor, the Holy Spirit.

This is an assumption/presupposition which has no basis in scripture or history. The chaff in Matt 3:12 is NOT the same as that which is destroyed in 1 Cor 3:12-15.

 

[Kal Perry]

When we study the Bible objectively, instead of picking out a few verses, here and there, we find that the Jewish writers of the Old and New Testament, used many figures of speech to explain and illustrate their writing. One such figure of speech was to reduplicate, repeat, certain words, for emphasis, such as “King of kings, Lord of lords,” etc. This figure of speech even has a grammatical name, Epizeuxis. We see from Isa 45:17, and many other O.T. verses, that “for ever and ever” makes perfect sense. Your quote.

Interesting understanding, I would have to consider this as plausible. However the Greek still says AIONS of the AIONS. and you cannot have a plurality of eternities!

Ephesians 1:10 that in the dipensation of the fulness of times He will gather ALL things in Christ Jesus.

This fulness of time, perhaps is the consumation of the end of the AGES.
1 Cor 15 20-28 indicates that at the consumation of the end of the ages that All things will be handed over to God who will become ALL in ALL. this will be the end of the AGES, the AIONS will end!

Your understanding is interesting of epizeukis i should know more of this but as of yet I have little to know understanding. I will research it, perhaps you have some wisdom here!

You probably think I am being inconsiderate or rude, let me assure you I am not, I still very much appreciate your time, Kal

 

[it'sme]

This is an irrelevant argument. For example the word "Bible" is not in the book we call the Holy Bible. The concept of "hell" as understood by modern readers is certainly described in the N.T. The concept of a place of eternal, unending punishment was taught by the Jews before the time of Christ. They used the word Gehenna to describe this place.

Then Jesus cast them off, because they were teaching man doctrines instead of God's word.The word hell originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a covered over or concealed place. In the old English dialect the expression helling potatoes meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

The real question is if man is alive after death, long before Jesus died for mankind, Why did Jesus die? Wasn't it so man could live?

 

[Der Alte]

When we study the Bible objectively, instead of picking out a few verses, here and there, we find that the Jewish writers of the Old and New Testament, used many figures of speech to explain and illustrate their writing. One such figure of speech was to reduplicate, repeat, certain words, for emphasis, such as “King of kings, Lord of lords,” etc. This figure of speech even has a grammatical name, Epizeuxis. We see from Isa 45:17, and many other O.T. verses, that “for ever and ever” makes perfect sense.

Your quote.

Interesting understanding, I would have to consider this as plausible. However the Greek still says AIONS of the AIONS. and you cannot have a plurality of eternities!

This is Epezeuxis, reduplication of the word AIONS to emphasize the eternality. Read Rev 14:11

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,​

The eternal condition of their torment is emphasized by the repetition of &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#945;&#7984;&#8182;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#969;&#957; and that is further emphasized by the phrase, "they have no rest day nor night."

Ephesians 1:10 that in the dipensation of the fulness of times He will gather ALL things in Christ Jesus.

This fulness of time, perhaps is the consumation of the end of the AGES.
1 Cor 15 20-28 indicates that at the consumation of the end of the ages that All things will be handed over to God who will become ALL in ALL. this will be the end of the AGES, the AIONS will end!

Neither of these passages use the word AION! And I note that you apparently have not read all the Greek sources I quoted showing the meaning of AION, you have not mentioned them.

Your understanding is interesting of epizeukis i should know more of this but as of yet I have little to know understanding. I will research it, perhaps you have some wisdom here!

You probably think I am being inconsiderate or rude, let me assure you I am not, I still very much appreciate your time, Kal

Here is a much longer explanation from 4 years ago. Christian Forums - View Single Post - Hell is not permanent.

 

[Kal Perry]

I will need a couple of days for study prayer and meditation on your replies to me! My wife has been searchinhg the Talmud for understanding of Judaism and their concept of Hell, She is Convinced I am wrong! Maybe? but when I finish this study I will have a correct understanding, and this will be put to rest.

I still remain unconvinced of eternal torment in Hell! I will study all material you have sent me. Kal

 

[Der Alte]

I will need a couple of days for study prayer and meditation on your replies to me! My wife has been searchinhg the Talmud for understanding of Judaism and their concept of Hell, She is Convinced I am wrong! Maybe? but when I finish this study I will have a correct understanding, and this will be put to rest.

I still remain unconvinced of eternal torment in Hell! I will study all material you have sent me. Kal

Here is part of an article from the Jewish Encyclopedia which discusses the ancient Jewish, before and during the time of Christ, understanding of a place of eternal punishment for the unrighteous. The full article is much longer. Scripture references are highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, &#913;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#921;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#953;, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

 

[Der Alte]

Then Jesus cast them off, because they were teaching man doctrines instead of God's word.The word hell originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a covered over or concealed place. In the old English dialect the expression helling potatoes meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

All of this is meaningless and irrelevant. There are more than 800 words in the KJV which have changed in meaning, and no longer mean what the translators intended, or dropped out of use altogether. Here are some examples, 'advertise' means 'tell,' 'allege' means 'prove,' 'conversation' means 'behavior'? 'communicate' means 'share,' 'take thought' means 'be anxious,' 'prevent' means 'precede', 'meat' is a general term for 'food,' 'anon' and 'by and by' mean 'immediately' and "artillery" means 'weapons."

The real question is if man is alive after death, long before Jesus died for mankind, Why did Jesus die? Wasn't it so man could live?

Still avoiding all the real questions that you can't answer. Why would God and Jesus use what you claim are pagan lies to communicate truth to God's people?

 

[it'sme]

All of this is meaningless and irrelevant. There are more than 800 words in the KJV which have changed in meaning, and no longer mean what the translators intended, or dropped out of use altogether. Here are some examples, 'advertise' means 'tell,' 'allege' means 'prove,' 'conversation' means 'behavior'? 'communicate' means 'share,' 'take thought' means 'be anxious,' 'prevent' means 'precede', 'meat' is a general term for 'food,' 'anon' and 'by and by' mean 'immediately' and "artillery" means 'weapons."

The real question is if man is alive after death, long before Jesus died for mankind, Why did Jesus die? Wasn't it so man could live?
​

Still avoiding all the real questions that you can't answer. Why would God and Jesus use what you claim are pagan lies to communicate truth to God's people?

I have answered this over and over for you but you don't seem to get it.

THE apostle Paul wrote to Christians living in Corinth: &#8220;How is it some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?&#8221; (1 Corinthians 15:12) The poisonous philosophy of the Greek sage Epicurus had made some inroads among the first-century Christians. Thus Paul drew attention to the Epicurean teaching: &#8220;Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.&#8221; (1 Corinthians 15:32) Disdaining any hope of a life after death, the philosopher&#8217;s followers believed that fleshly pleasure was the sole or chief good in life. (Acts 17:18, 32) Epicurean philosophy was self-centered, cynical, and ultimately degrading.
This denial of the resurrection had profound implications. Paul reasoned: &#8220;If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. . . . If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.&#8221; (1 Corinthians 15:13-19) Yes, without the hope of an eternal future, Christianity would be &#8220;in vain.&#8221; It would be without purpose. Little wonder, then, that under the influence of this pagan thinking, the Corinthian congregation had become a hotbed of problems. (1 Corinthians 1:11; 5:1; 6:1; 11:20-22) Paul, therefore, aimed to strengthen their faith in the resurrection. Using powerful logic, Scripture quotations, and illustrations, he proved beyond any doubt that the resurrection hope was not fiction but a reality certain of fulfillment. On this basis, he could urge his fellow believers: &#8220;Become steadfast, unmovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord.&#8221;&#8212;1 Corinthians 15:20-58 Also some were teaching that there is an after life. Though still believing Jesus died for us, they really denie that we needed Jesus resurrection, because in their believe of an after life we already received life.
Jesus knew these things would infiltrate the Christians after his death, as it was already starting. So the people knew about these teachings that were contrary , to the resurrection of Jesus. The illustrations Jesus used the people even in the congregations the knew what was meant.
we use this language today. For example we say that a son that has gone wild in his life, it said that his father would roll over in his grave if he knew what his son was doing. We know that the father isn't literally doing that. And we are certainly not condoning paganism by saying that. But we do understand the illustration.
But over time these pagan beliefs have come to be incorporated into Christendom, and now they don't get it. Instead of believing that Jesus is the way we get life, many churches say we have life after death. Which totally nullifies why Jesus died for us.

So you have taken the pagan ideas that had infiltrated into the followers of Jesus in that day, and just like the Pharisees, believe what they taught.

The real question is if man is alive after death, long before Jesus died for mankind, Why did Jesus die? Wasn't it so man could live?

 

[jpcedotal]

This thread has got to win the "Thread with the Largest Number of Ridiculously Long Posts" award...sheesh

 

[Der Alte]

THE apostle Paul wrote to Christians living in Corinth: &#8220;How is it some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?&#8221; (1 Corinthians 15:12) The poisonous philosophy of the Greek sage Epicurus had made some inroads among the first-century Christians. Thus Paul drew attention to the Epicurean teaching: &#8220;Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.&#8221; (1 Corinthians 15:32) Disdaining any hope of a life after death, the philosopher&#8217;s followers believed that fleshly pleasure was the sole or chief good in life. (Acts 17:18, 32) Epicurean philosophy was self-centered, cynical, and ultimately degrading.

Instead of proving that life after death was a pagan teaching, this examples proves just the opposite. Where is your proof life after death is pagan and that God, Jesus and the disciples rejected the teaching?

This denial of the resurrection had profound implications. Paul reasoned: &#8220;If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. . . . If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.&#8221; (1 Corinthians 15:13-19) Yes, without the hope of an eternal future, Christianity would be &#8220;in vain.&#8221; It would be without purpose. Little wonder, then, that under the influence of this pagan thinking, the Corinthian congregation had become a hotbed of problems. (1 Corinthians 1:11; 5:1; 6:1; 11:20-22) Paul, therefore, aimed to strengthen their faith in the resurrection. Using powerful logic, Scripture quotations, and illustrations, he proved beyond any doubt that the resurrection hope was not fiction but a reality certain of fulfillment.

This proves the truth of the resurrection but does NOT show anything about life after death being pagan and God, Jesus, and the disciples rejecting this teaching.

On this basis, he could urge his fellow believers: &#8220;Become steadfast, unmovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord.&#8221;&#8212;1 Corinthians 15:20-58 Also some were teaching that there is an after life. Though still believing Jesus died for us, they really denie that we needed Jesus resurrection, because in their believe of an after life we already received life.

I have read 1 Cor 15:2-58 and did not see anything which shows that the Corinthians believed in a pagan concept of life after death or that Paul said anything about it.

Jesus knew these things would infiltrate the Christians after his death, as it was already starting. So the people knew about these teachings that were contrary , to the resurrection of Jesus. The illustrations Jesus used the people even in the congregations the knew what was meant.

Logical fallacy begging the question. You assume that Jesus knew or said something about a pagan concept of life after death, and the Corinthians knew it also. What illustrations are you talking about? In Luke 16:19-31 was talking to his disciples, in Jerusalem, NOT former pagan Christians at Corinth. How could the disciples know something that did not happen until 20-30 years later in a different country?

we use this language today. For example we say that a son that has gone wild in his life, it said that his father would roll over in his grave if he knew what his son was doing. We know that the father isn't literally doing that. And we are certainly not condoning paganism by saying that. But we do understand the illustration.

More logical fallacies. The fact that people today, in 2010, use figures or speech, such as the one you mentioned, does NOT prove that God and Jesus used similar figures of speech 2000-3000 years ago. Did the people in the times of Isa 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22 also understand what you claim were figures of speech although God NEVER identifies them as such?

But over time these pagan beliefs have come to be incorporated into Christendom, and now they don't get it. Instead of believing that Jesus is the way we get life, many churches say we have life after death. Which totally nullifies why Jesus died for us.

So you have taken the pagan ideas that had infiltrated into the followers of Jesus in that day, and just like the Pharisees, believe what they taught.

I thought you had agreed to use Christianity instead of the demeaning "Christendom" which is often spelled "Christendumb" by JWs. You have NOT proved that any pagan ideas of any kind have been incorporated into Christianity.

The real question is if man is alive after death, long before Jesus died for mankind, Why did Jesus die? Wasn't it so man could live?

Neither God nor Jesus are limited by time and space. The judgment has already happened for those who have died. God is the God of the living, he is not the God of miscellaneous dust lying in the ground for thousands of years. And both God and Jesus speak of the dead in Sheol/Hades moving, speaking, feeling pain, etc. And never once does any scripture identify those scripture as anything but the eternal truth of God.

 

[it'sme]

Der Alter
I have enjoyed our talks, even though we disagree on things. But even so I did have to do some research and it was good for my study habits. I became very familiar with some scriptures I haven't used in a while.
I have been reminded of something and should really head that , so I'm going to break off.
Just think about it a bit. The Jews were very wrong when Jesus came, it will happen that way again.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter
I have enjoyed our talks, even though we disagree on things. But even so I did have to do some research and it was good for my study habits. I became very familiar with some scriptures I haven't used in a while.
I have been reminded of something and should really head that , so I'm going to break off.
Just think about it a bit. The Jews were very wrong when Jesus came, it will happen that way again.

And you leave with a lot of hard unanswered questions, which clearly reveals the vast shortcomings of the WTBS religion. If you have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth there should never be a question which cannot be answered from scripture. But you have left many questions unanswered or with makeshift answers with no scriptural basis. Unfortunately when Jesus returns he will find many saying we did many wonderful things in your name and he will say, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." And one of those groups will be the deceived followers of the 19th century WTBS false religion, which enslaves its followers with coercion, fear and threats, instead of the love of Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

This thread has got to win the "Thread with the Largest Number of Ridiculously Long Posts" award...sheesh

Sorry you feel that way. Did someone put a gun to your head and force you to come to this forum and read this thread? Sometimes I tend to post fairly long posts because I have a great deal of information which addresses the topic. I posted one post in this thread which cites eleven Greek language sources showing that the Greek word AION means forever, eternal, unending, etc. Posting each source separately would have taken a long time so I chose to post them all at once. The point I was making is against those who argue that AION never meant eternal., etc. I think I made my point effectively and feel confident that it cannot be refuted.

 

[ShermanN]

Der Alter,

I'm curious, as you know scripture speaks of "aionian" judgment; does this mean that the judgement lasts forever, is never ending? Also scripture speaks of "aionian" fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah; are Sodom and Gomorrah eternally burning and the fire still burning?

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter,

I'm curious, as you know scripture speaks of "aionian" judgment; does this mean that the judgement lasts forever, is never ending? Also scripture speaks of "aionian" fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah; are Sodom and Gomorrah eternally burning and the fire still burning?

I notice you did not quote any specific scripture here. I have already discussed the answer to your question in great detail in this thread. Here are three of my previous posts in this thread.

Twenty eight passages, in the order they occur in the N.T. Jesus discussing the fate of the unrighteous.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7449497-19/#post54560645

Eleven accredited Greek language resources showing the definition of AION. It does mean eternal, everlasting, unending!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7449497-21/#post54566194

A citation from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that the ancient Jews before and including the time of Christ believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous. Thus this belief was not copied from pagans and it was not a later Christian develeopment.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7449497-21/#post54569505

 

[ShermanN]

I notice you did not quote any specific scripture here.

I assumed you were familiar with them. But here you go.

Heb.6:1-3
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning, and is judgment endless?

Concerning your other posts, I reviewed them quickly and didn't note where you addressed these verses specifically, but I could have missed it.

I'll gladly share other resourses that interpret "aionios" differently if you'd like; but for now let's just look at these two verses.

Blessings,
Sherman

 

[Der Alte]

I assumed you were familiar with them. But here you go.

Heb.6:1-3
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning, and is judgment endless?

Concerning your other posts, I reviewed them quickly and didn't note where you addressed these verses specifically, but I could have missed it.

Let me see if I understand the situation correctly. I have listed three posts where I extensively discuss the topic of this thread, I cited a total of 67 scripture and eleven Greek language sources, you skimmed over the posts, basically ignoring everything, without addressing anything and you expect me to answer your question concerning one out-of-context question.

I have proved conclusively that the meaning of AION has always included eternal, everlasting, unending and you have ignored that because you have one out-of-context proof text that you mistakenly think proves something.

I'll gladly share other resourses that interpret "aionios" differently if you'd like; but for now let's just look at these two verses.

I doubt very much that you can produce any credible resources which interpret aionios differently. As I said I quoted eleven of the major accredited resources, including classical Greek. What you may be able to do is copy/paste some 2d-3d hand stuff from one of the standard websites, "hellmakers" and "tentbusters" are the ones most commonly used.

 

[ShermanN]

Actually, I've studied Greek at the Masters level also and am well informed concerning this topic. And I don't recall even seeing the websites, "hellmakers" or "tentbusters", and have read little of any Universalist's material. What I believe, has come from my personal study of scripture and prayer - though it is certainly not what I was taught in seminary.

From my studies I've come to believe that "aionios" is likely best translated as "eternal", but does not signify length of time; rather, aionios is used to speak of that which comes from the realm of God that transcends time, that which is of God. Eternal judgment is not judgment that lasts endlessly, but is judgment that comes from God. The "eternal" fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is not still burning, but was fire from God that came in judgment.

But from your response it seems that you're pretty hardened in your beliefs and not desiring to respectfully discuss the verses I mentioned or the issue at hand, with me at least. And I'm not one to waiste time and effort in useless denunciations, baseless accusations, or prejudicial assumptions. I was hoping we could have a civil discussion on the issue, but apparently not.