I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

[loveofourlord]

Maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion, but it seems to me, that a fool told to wait a little longer, is always going to assume they know the truth, before they actually see it.

'False positive' that's what I'm talking about.

There is an innate 'false positive', that Evolutionists have not attempted to address (it's just assumed that a belief in Evolution, matches all the instances of that 'Evolution').

Except it does fit all the instances, Geneticly phyogenicly, bones, even development shows how evolution happened. At this point the actual onus is on those claiming it's false to prove it wrong. And it's not just same designer same design, as many of the same designs and genes would be the equivalent of engineer using the design of a truck to make a car, even using many of the same parts, and quiet a few parts are just randomly welded to the frame, they do nothing, but are there because the truck had them.

 

[Gottservant]

Except it does fit all the instances, Geneticly phyogenicly, bones, even development shows how evolution happened. At this point the actual onus is on those claiming it's false to prove it wrong. And it's not just same designer same design, as many of the same designs and genes would be the equivalent of engineer using the design of a truck to make a car, even using many of the same parts, and quiet a few parts are just randomly welded to the frame, they do nothing, but are there because the truck had them.

You're implying different animals 'evolve' in the same way.

Using the same term, to relate differences, does not make the concept "more powerful" (that is, along the same trajectory, uniting differences under the same banner).

Adam named the creatures that were in paradise; he didn't say "you are version 2 of instance 1" or "you are version 3 of instance 1" - if all you are doing is the reverse of naming different types of creatures, you are basically eroding the same difference that would make a difference (to make a point).

 

[Gottservant]

I'm not saying its wrong eroding a difference that is already there, I'm saying its wrong to erode a difference that is already there and then insist others erode the difference with more emphasis again.

The predator does not get to call the shots, he takes advantage of the shots that other species make - whether they do it as a species or not.

If species had to work as a team to survive, it would be simpler to just not let the predator get anything.

That really has been the stance of Evolution to Design all along: "effect survival, but don't do so on the basis of your word (the one thing that would make you stronger than the predator, if you kept it)"

 

[Gottservant]

Here's another quote, that Evolutionists need to be mindful of:

When you're trying to persuade, storytelling can backfire

 

[loveofourlord]

You're implying different animals 'evolve' in the same way.

Using the same term, to relate differences, does not make the concept "more powerful" (that is, along the same trajectory, uniting differences under the same banner).

Adam named the creatures that were in paradise; he didn't say "you are version 2 of instance 1" or "you are version 3 of instance 1" - if all you are doing is the reverse of naming different types of creatures, you are basically eroding the same difference that would make a difference (to make a point).

Except that certain things fit, like development of the fetus and such is something that happens independent of the creatures phenotype, and so on. A dolphin that doesn't smell on land, has no reason to have a ton of their genes be for land scent. Why do humans have genes from other great apes that would be harmful to us being human. And other things. These genes are de-activated, but it's almost as if god is either wasteful, lazy, or they are there to pretend to be evidence of ancestry by your logic.

 

[Brightmoon]

You're implying different animals 'evolve' in the same way.

Using the same term, to relate differences, does not make the concept "more powerful" (that is, along the same trajectory, uniting differences under the same banner).

Adam named the creatures that were in paradise; he didn't say "you are version 2 of instance 1" or "you are version 3 of instance 1" - if all you are doing is the reverse of naming different types of creatures, you are basically eroding the same difference that would make a difference (to make a point).

. Yes different animals do evolve in the same way . That’s why a birds wing , a whale flipper, and your arm all have the almost the same underlying bone and muscle structure and use the same genes to form this. Yes whales have more phalanges (finger bones) and birds have fewer fingers but this is due to how long the genes stay switched on or off and/or changes in the sequence of how they switch . A lot of evolutionary changes are due to just that not different genes!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Except it does fit all the instances, Geneticly phyogenicly, bones, even development shows how evolution happened. At this point the actual onus is on those claiming it's false to prove it wrong. And it's not just same designer same design, as many of the same designs and genes would be the equivalent of engineer using the design of a truck to make a car, even using many of the same parts, and quiet a few parts are just randomly welded to the frame, they do nothing, but are there because the truck had them.

That is true, lots of cars have redundant/ vestigial parts-parts designed for optional extras that your model may not have.. does this mean that your car spontaneously mutated itself from another model for no particular reason?

 

[loveofourlord]

That is true, lots of cars have redundant/ vestigial parts-parts designed for optional extras that your model may not have.. does this mean that your car spontaneously mutated itself from another model for no particular reason?

Not even remotely close to the same thing try again. Might want to stop using PRATTs. Were not talking about lazy manufacturers that may put in stuff no longer needed because it's cheaper, were talking about god. Is god forced to use the same blueprint because it's cheaper to have genes that no longer work and only make sense if they were evolved. Man the creationist god is a lazy one.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Not even remotely close to the same thing try again. Might want to stop using PRATTs. Were not talking about lazy manufacturers that may put in stuff no longer needed because it's cheaper, were talking about god. Is god forced to use the same blueprint because it's cheaper to have genes that no longer work and only make sense if they were evolved. Man the creationist god is a lazy one.

A flexible design that works for different purposes in different situations, will have features that are more useful in some applications than others. Regardless of how expensive the car is: 4 wheel drive is a redundant feature for most people in Florida, but a must have in much of northern Michigan!

 

[loveofourlord]

A flexible design that works for different purposes in different situations, will have features that are more useful in some applications than others. Regardless of how expensive the car is: 4 wheel drive is a redundant feature for most people in Florida, but a must have in much of northern Michigan!

Again this is god that knows everything and knows what will or won't be needed. What use would humans have for a gene that would reduce human intelligence and make speech impossible?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Again this is god that knows everything and knows what will or won't be needed. What use would humans have for a gene that would reduce human intelligence and make speech impossible?

what use would the world's best auto engineer have for any car part that wears out by planned obsolescence?

we are not designed to be immortal, we are designed to be replaced- and there are lots of good design arguments for this

 

[loveofourlord]

what use would the world's best auto engineer have for any car part that wears out by planned obsolescence?

we are not designed to be immortal, we are designed to be replaced- and there are lots of good design arguments for this

You didn't respond to my example, as it would serve no purpose, again stop making god to look incompetent.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

You didn't respond to my example, as it would serve no purpose, again stop making god to look incompetent.

I do take your point- but you seem to bring up an example of mutations being overwhelmingly deleterious

And this still also holds true for cars, a manufacturing error does not reflect 'bad design' on the part of the engineer. Nor does your wrapping it around a tree on the way home

we know we are fragile, parts break, we are all born with imperfections of some kind right?
But is this bad design? incompetence?

Would you have everyone be flawless in every way? tempting, but perhaps God thought this through a little further..

 

[Brightmoon]

Bad design ? Human knees are a horrible design . they bend the wrong way and they’re fragile . Human spines ? We’re evolved quadrupeds that walk on our hind legs and our spines suffer for it . That S curve in our spine is a workaround . This plainly looks like something evolution cobbled together rather than purposeful design

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Bad design ? Human knees are a horrible design . they bend the wrong way and they’re fragile . Human spines ? We’re evolved quadrupeds that walk on our hind legs and our spines suffer for it . That S curve in our spine is a workaround . This plainly looks like something evolution cobbled together rather than purposeful design

Well would you rather be sitting comfortably in a chair right now with your feet on the ground, or have your hairy legs sticking up in front of your face?! Humans have long spent much of their time 'reposed' sheltered, around a warm fire, where their poor night vision, lack of fur, and slow legs do not expose their physical vulnerabilities- enjoying the company of family and eating some nice warm food they gathered earlier..

Or if you could trade- would you rather be out in the woods, darting around on all fours, using your awesome night vision to hunt for bugs under rocks?

me neither

'bad design' arguments tend to be highly subjective, and many challenges are blessings that make us human

 

[Brightmoon]

That’s because our bigger brain sorta makes up for it. Homo erectus used fire and made tools . There’s a trend of ballet dancers pulling their knees the other way . I think it looks weird but they can move better than us average mortals .

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That’s because our bigger brain sorta makes up for it. Homo erectus used fire and made tools . There’s a trend of ballet dancers pulling their knees the other way . I think it looks weird but they can move better than us average mortals .

ouch!- I'm definitely not built that way, I cant even touch my knees, but being too limber leads to arthritis they say..

That's sort of the same point though, if you can make a living alone sneaking up on bugs in the dark and outrunning predators, what would you need the large brain for?

i.e. our frailty and intelligence work hand in hand do they not? And to what end? The opossum that lives under my canoe is not pondering all this- the meaning of her existence

 

[nolidad]

As you learned, what you think of evolution has nothing whatever to do with your salvation, unless you make an idol of that new doctrine and insist all Christians must believe it to be saved.

And as you learned, I repeatedly said salvation is not tied to believing in Creation. However, many evolutionary scientists who are found in Christian churches also do not have the right understanding of what is required to be saved, so they are deceived on both fronts.

But All doctrine is important that god spoke of. We all can argue which are more and which are less important, but we should learn to hande all doctrine from SCripture with honor and truth, and not what the world appears to have.

 

[nolidad]

But they both purport to be through Joseph.

Learn about it here:
Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia



Nice try, though.

Still pushing that old falsehood in defiance of the reality of how female genealogies worked? Truly sad.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi there,

So you know that verse that says "God will give them over to a strong delusion" (paraphrase)? Well, I think I am getting to be at cross purposes with God, trying to do what He has made next to impossible.

The disciples were put out, saying "if it is that hard for the rich to be saved, how can any of us be saved?"

Jesus said "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

The point for me is that if someone is partially saved, it is better (not to argue, not to contest, not to repine) to refigure - in other words, actually stop expecting people will look to Jesus.

This is hard. I factor Jesus into everything I do, by faith; to just refigure - for example to take the Holy Spirit as my example - means forcing my faith to take a back seat. I'm not convinced this is going to save anyone, but I suppose in principle it is what Jesus found Himself having to do, when He was too weak to carry His Cross, for example. What is hard for me, is that I am not yet at the point where I can't carry my cross: I can talk, I can reason, I can justify - none of these things are not common to Man (but I suppose that is the point, they are common, not holy).

The thing is I just can't bring myself to believe, I will get to Heaven and God will say "Evolution was only partially relevant over time, the rest was Jesus" - I mean that is just not how God works. We've been through a world war over this, right? The idea that man completes himself, is a disaster - it makes you a friend of the Devil, without the meaning to uphold the eventuation of the Spirit. I think that is really the point: I am expecting to be equal with God as regards "Evolution", but I need first to yield to the Holy Spirit.

This is what Jesus did in His time, that is how He came to realize He had a cross, He yielded to the Holy Spirit. I think the thing is that if you successively submit to the Holy Spirit, the way an Evolutionist would begin to, you actually get much more than a cross: you get the entire faith of the entire Church, as regards the rapture. Maybe that is too hard to take on at once, I don't know, but it feels like the only thing that makes sense at this point. If we all consistently take on the Holy Spirit as a body, Evolution ceases to entangle even a little.

The Devil then, needs to take a lead from us, we need to be using our faith in order to make the way ahead for him - not that we give place to the Devil, but that we make a way of escape for him, that he not turn on us and bite us. If we did that collectively, people would cease to need a defence in Evolution, at the expectation that denial by it would provide them with a way of escape. Of course, then refiguring Jesus would be easy and light, but with a tinge of sadness, that men in the end could not find peace with Jesus without killing His Spirit in the process. I think that is a crisis that is still coming - despite all I have said.

But God has hope and we should rest in Him.

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, " LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:18-31‬ ‭NASB


“Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, " He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS "; and again, " THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NASB