I am a Muslim(sort of)

[Greg1234]

TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod"I want proof that Jesus The Son of God existed as the Bible states."
You can start with the fact that Jesus Christ The Son of God exists as the bible states. Spiritual practice provides evidence for the bible

 

[gord44]

Why are they buried with crosses? Roman electric chairs had no meaning before Christ. Why were they buried honoring Messiah?

And as mentioned above, crosses predate Christianity by quite a bit.

 

[Greg1234]

TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod"You see a cross so you assume Jesus existed? This only means the story of Jesus existed. You are making self refuting claims as to believe that the symbolism correlates to the historicity of Jesus, you must already accept the existence of Jesus before hand."

You want evidence for Jesus as the bible states. You want evidence for the miracles and things of that nature. Yet, you want it all done in materialism. Don't use the bible, don't use spiritual practice, don't use anything of a spiritual nature, and show you the miracles? When you isolate the spiritual from the conventionally visible, that is exactly what you will get- an isolation of the spiritual and the conventionally visible. Why are you expecting more than a cross like that?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Yes, but crosses were used for torture; they weren't something to have engraved on your burial container with the name Jesus Christ.

 

[Zoness]

It seems many get confused on my religious stance and assume I am a Muslim. I am not, I am a Deist with Islamic flavorings.

During my departure from Islam I learned and studied more about Islam and its true origins and came to the conclusion that it was indeed pagan and made of the Wathaniyya(Arabic Paganism) which came before it. I realized that Muhammad destroyed this beautiful society and that the Qur'an compromises of many pieces of what are left although spun into a Judaic fashion.

So I guess one could call me an "Honest Muslim" as I know that Muhammad was not a prophet nor is the Qur'an divine but I still hold the Qur'an as having significant enough theological concepts that I find it spiritually useful along with learning of the pre-Islamic theology which came before it.

So one call call me an "Islamic Deist", "Deistic Muslim" or "Pagan Muslim Deist" but nonetheless I am just a Deist who finds inspiration from Arabic theology.

You can express your thoughts for further clarification.

This issue just comes up to often I thought it needed its own thread.

I get what you're saying, I've sort of had a paradigm shift myself.

I just changed my faith icon to Deist to reflect my beliefs: Deist with significant Celtic and Germanic pagan influences.

 

[gord44]

Yes, but crosses were used for torture; they weren't something to have engraved on your burial container with the name Jesus Christ.

They were used in pre-Christian religions dating back to 2500-3900 BC. Not even discussing their use for execution, just as a religious symbol.

Regardless, your point is lost on us. Why are burial containers with crosses and the name of Jesus Christ on them some amazing find? It sounds like something that would be common in a Christian burial site.

 

[MehGuy]

It seems many get confused on my religious stance and assume I am a Muslim. I am not, I am a Deist with Islamic flavorings.

During my departure from Islam I learned and studied more about Islam and its true origins and came to the conclusion that it was indeed pagan and made of the Wathaniyya(Arabic Paganism) which came before it. I realized that Muhammad destroyed this beautiful society and that the Qur'an compromises of many pieces of what are left although spun into a Judaic fashion.

So I guess one could call me an "Honest Muslim" as I know that Muhammad was not a prophet nor is the Qur'an divine but I still hold the Qur'an as having significant enough theological concepts that I find it spiritually useful along with learning of the pre-Islamic theology which came before it.

So one call call me an "Islamic Deist", "Deistic Muslim" or "Pagan Muslim Deist" but nonetheless I am just a Deist who finds inspiration from Arabic theology.

You can express your thoughts for further clarification.

This issue just comes up to often I thought it needed its own thread.

I do not really understand a deist. They believe God exists, but does not interfere with the universe. If he doesn't interfere with the universe and stays afar, how can you know a God exist? Why not become an agnostic, or an atheist?

Or perhaps I'm understanding deism incorrectly..

 

[Sword of the Lord]

These Jewish burial containers are important and amazing, and are a step towards proving the existence of Jesus Christ because:

They were found in Jerusalem
Jerusalem is obviously a very prominent and important city in the Bible. Many NT events take place in Jerusalem.

They were found at the Mount of Olives
The Mount of Olives is an important place in the Bible, particularly in the NT, where Jesus delivers his sermon.

They were found with the names Mary, Martha, and Simon Bar-Jona
All of these are NT characters. There are quite a few Mary's in the NT; however, with the name Martha here, it is likely than this Mary is the sister of Martha, whom Jesus sets straight in the NT account of Mary and Martha having a sisterly dispute. Simon Bar-Jona is the name of St. Peter.

They were found with the symbol of the Cross and the name Jesus Christ inscribed on them
The Cross meant nothing to the Jews. Before Jesus Christ gave the symbol relevance in the region, it was nothing more than a torture device; a Roman electric chair, if you will.

The containers are dated to the 1st century
They are not dated to 100-200 AD. The are dated to the FIRST century. This is the century in which Jesus Christ walked the earth in the flesh, and was crucified shortly before the middle of the century. It does not matter that the containers might be a few decades older than Jesus. Why? Because his followers didn't die with him. Most of them, unless martyred early, would have lived decades longer.

So, we have the containers found in a biblical city, in a biblical place, with biblical names, with the correct symbols and inscriptions, during the exact time period.

This HELPS prove to existence of Jesus and not just the religion because: it was the correct time and place. The people would have known, being in Jerusalem especially, in the first century, of Jesus' ministry and highly public crucifiction. If it were fake, people of the exact time and place wouldn't be fooled. All of the other "right" information is icing on the cake.

1 + 1 probably equals 2

 

[123ab]

It seems many get confused on my religious stance and assume I am a Muslim. I am not, I am a Deist with Islamic flavorings.

During my departure from Islam I learned and studied more about Islam and its true origins and came to the conclusion that it was indeed pagan and made of the Wathaniyya(Arabic Paganism) which came before it. I realized that Muhammad destroyed this beautiful society and that the Qur'an compromises of many pieces of what are left although spun into a Judaic fashion.

So I guess one could call me an "Honest Muslim" as I know that Muhammad was not a prophet nor is the Qur'an divine but I still hold the Qur'an as having significant enough theological concepts that I find it spiritually useful along with learning of the pre-Islamic theology which came before it.

So one call call me an "Islamic Deist", "Deistic Muslim" or "Pagan Muslim Deist" but nonetheless I am just a Deist who finds inspiration from Arabic theology.

You can express your thoughts for further clarification.

This issue just comes up to often I thought it needed its own thread.

Hi,

I have looked into Islam and the Qur'an more deeply quite recently (more than I did so previously) and certain questions have crept into my mind.

I think it would be best to contact an Islamic organisation to see if you can speak/write to an Islamic scholar.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I get what you're saying, I've sort of had a paradigm shift myself.

I just changed my faith icon to Deist to reflect my beliefs: Deist with significant Celtic and Germanic pagan influences.

See I hate this. I like to be a mystery! Being mysterious is the best part of god. As a fellow Deist, we assert that we do not know what god is like..but we do know what god is not like.

Deism unlike Theism is backwards theology. I believe that more Deists should encourage mystery in their thought and not be ashamed of understanding outside theologies(no matter how wrong they are).

Islam is purely anti-Deistic yet I still mess around and study it. I still do salat(Islamic prayer) and removed tashahhud(placing blessings on Muhammad) and I only use it as a meditative purpose.

I believe that Deism should be a standpoint like atheism. Atheists can be humanist, materialist and even anti-theist. Deists can be the previous 3 and more including theological practitioners.

So I recommend Deists to actually venture because the concept of Deism was formed in order to rule out absurdities in theology. We as Deists know that god is perfect by default as all perceptions of perfect exist in a materialistic realm. We also now god has not ordained any religion or prophet nor has he bestowed upon us commandments.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Hi,

I have looked into Islam and the Qur'an more deeply quite recently (more than I did so previously) and certain questions have crept into my mind.

I think it would be best to contact an Islamic organisation to see if you can speak/write to an Islamic scholar.

I am moderately trained in Islam as I am also semi literate in Qur'anic Arabic. It is best to ask me instead of relying on an Islamic center which just white washes issues.

 

[Zoness]

See I hate this. I like to be a mystery! Being mysterious is the best part of god. As a fellow Deist, we assert that we do not know what god is like..but we do know what god is not like.

Deism unlike Theism is backwards theology. I believe that more Deists should encourage mystery in their thought and not be ashamed of understanding outside theologies(no matter how wrong they are).

Islam is purely anti-Deistic yet I still mess around and study it. I still do salat(Islamic prayer) and removed tashahhud(placing blessings on Muhammad) and I only use it as a meditative purpose.

I believe that Deism should be a standpoint like atheism. Atheists can be humanist, materialist and even anti-theist. Deists can be the previous 3 and more including theological practitioners.

So I recommend Deists to actually venture because the concept of Deism was formed in order to rule out absurdities in theology. We as Deists know that god is perfect by default as all perceptions of perfect exist in a materialistic realm. We also now god has not ordained any religion or prophet nor has he bestowed upon us commandments.

A good articulation. I'd say I am more Deist-Agnostic. Deism is just an explanation of what is possible and what is unlikely, as you've said. I think one can be Deist and then be Humanist, Agnostic, Atheist etc. -- In fact, seeker/agnostic would probably be a better icon to describe me.

 

[gord44]

1 + 1 probably equals 2

That's just lazy. And it's really the only thing theists have. Not any cold hard facts, just the old 1 + 1 = 2*.

*maybe. well we have nothing solid but how else would this happen? instead of using reason and logic, we just need to say 'God did it' and leave it at that. Looking further will just lead to doubt.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I do not really understand a deist. They believe God exists, but does not interfere with the universe. If he doesn't interfere with the universe and stays afar, how can you know a God exist? Why not become an agnostic, or an atheist?

Or perhaps I'm understanding deism incorrectly..

You are using old Christian refutations which is what most people's understanding of Deism comes from.

Thomas Paine...
"The only idea man can affix to the name of God is that of a
first cause, the cause of all things. And incomprehensible and
difficult as it is for a man to conceive what a first cause is, he
arrives at the belief of it from the tenfold greater difficulty of
disbelieving it. It is difficult beyond description to conceive that
space can have no end; but it is more difficult to conceive an end. It
is difficult beyond the power of man to conceive an eternal duration
of what we call time; but it is more impossible to conceive a time
when there shall be no time."​

Deist's believe that god created the world and due to the fact that the only conception of god can be out of natural existence would mean that omniscience and omnipotence are automatically acquired. Meaning that god would require no further intervention int he universe and it would also mean god has no will of his own.

Deist's do not actually like using the term God which is why in most Deistic literature this word is usually dodged.

Deist's extracted the existence of god from creation. The First Cause is god, although whether or not you wish to call it god is debatable. This is why Deism is rather agnostic to an extent as we can only rule out associations with god such as superstition, revelation and miracles. We know more about what god is not then what It is.

Creation and all things to occur all come from creation and this is something Atheist's admit the issue is that they do not anthropomorphize it like theists do. If you believe in the Big Bang Theory then you believe in a first cause and that alone can be equated to god.

Deism is actually not far removed from Atheism actually, it is a form of non-theism. The only difference is that Deist's work on the spectrum of agnosticism to conceive god and through naturalism then through spiritualism.

The issue is that when the concept of god comes up you think of an old man with a beard like Yahweh or Zeus while Deists view god as the First Cause, as an event in time and state of nothingness.

Deism is actually a systematic theological science used to rationally conceive the possibilities of god. It is not a religious standpoint but an intellectual one

 

[EnemyOfReason]

That's just lazy. And it's really the only thing theists have. Not any cold hard facts, just the old 1 + 1 = 2*.

*maybe. well we have nothing solid but how else would this happen? instead of using reason and logic, we just need to say 'God did it' and leave it at that. Looking further will just lead to doubt.

Your words always restore my 'ukhila'

 

[Sword of the Lord]

So you're denying the logical reasoning here in favor of the illogical one? If you've got a burial site that dates to the exact time period in which Jesus was alive in the flesh, in a biblically correct city and place, with biblically correct names, with correct symbolism and inscriptions, it's likely that Jesus isn't fictional. These people would have been in the right place at the right time to know whether or not he was fictional. They wouldn't have been buried in the right place at the right time honoring a fictional character.

You're the one denying logic and reasoning here. This mythical Jesus idea is so new age and ridiculous.

Now, if you want to debate the divinity of Jesus, that I can understand and respect.

 

[Zoness]

Now, if you want to debate the divinity of Jesus, that I can understand and respect.

Personally, I take this position. I do accept that chances are, a person who would be described as Jesus did exist during this time period. However, the religious implications are lost on me.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

So you're denying the logical reasoning here in favor of the illogical one? If you've got a burial site that dates to the exact time period in which Jesus was alive in the flesh, in a biblically correct city and place, with biblically correct names, with correct symbolism and inscriptions, it's likely that Jesus isn't fictional. These people would have been in the right place at the right time to know whether or not he was fictional. They wouldn't have been buried in the right place at the right time honoring a fictional character.

You're the one denying logic and reasoning here. This mythical Jesus idea is so new age and ridiculous.

You are giving up logical reason here. All you are proving is that Christianity existed.

What if I was buried with the names found int he story if the Songs of Ilion in my tomb? I was buried in Greece and on my inscription it read Achilles?

Obviously you fail to realize that Zeus loves you .

Your argument is self refuting. You give no proof of the character but instead you give proof of a guy associated with the character. The texts to assign his correlation o Jesus did not occur until AFTER the creation and burial of his own tomb and succeeded the event by decades.

I cannot even fathom how you would bring this information up and speak of it like fact. Historians would be astonished by your circular "logic".

Show me the confirmed tomb of Jesus. Show me the dating, show me an outside source associated with him and especially not one of the Josephus or Tacitus forgeries.

Now, if you want to debate the divinity of Jesus, that I can understand and respect.

What else do you think we are debating? The Biblical claims of Jesus and the historicity of Jesus are two separate concepts

 

[Sword of the Lord]

The difference is is that the people buried in the tomb were alive when Jesus was alive and died after his crucifiction. They would have known better, especially in Jerusalem, if Jesus was fictional. At the VERY least, a man Jesus existed and he had followers.

I'm sorry, but do you have a concrete skull?

 

[LoAmmi]

Personally, I take this position. I do accept that chances are, a person who would be described as Jesus did exist during this time period. However, the religious implications are lost on me.

I agree with you. I tend to focus my debates on the claims made by (and by Christianity) rather than the existence of Jesus.