I am a Muslim(sort of)

[theophilus777]

I am not exactly looking for peace right now, more interested in finding baby back ribs so I can smoke em for the 4th

Michael Scott from "The Office" is singing 'I want my babyback' - YouTube

 

[theophilus777]

The mere definition of god is not even coherrent and anytime the argument comes up all that one will recieve is varying views about a god or god that it makes no sense.

True true! I have long tried to express this, with most people shunning me for it. (Atheist and Christian alike) Its still true.

There is no logical basis for ...
Whether it is he or she or neither.
Is it anthropomorphic, beyond description or formless.

Did it create a religion or not

I agree with you on these

Is it omniscience.
Is it omnipotent.

The bible teaches no to both these, unless you highly qualify omniscience to only that which is knowable. Even then its sketchy.

When the word god comes to mind all that I think of is ignorance. God is only used to fill spaces of ignorance.

'God of the gaps,' def not a good place to be. And while it doesn't matter to me, I can envision certain Muslims being very upset with you for claiming to be one, but I do get your affinity for the influence it has had on you.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

True true! I have long tried to express this, with most people shunning me for it. (Atheist and Christian alike) Its still true.



I agree with you on these




The bible teaches no to both these, unless you highly qualify omniscience to only that which is knowable. Even then its sketchy.



'God of the gaps,' def not a good place to be. And while it doesn't matter to me, I can envision certain Muslims being very upset with you for claiming to be one, but I do get your affinity for the influence it has had on you.

I am used to the title. I am used to being a Muslim and doing Muslim things, I am not very fond of pork to this very day, dislike immodesty and loath overly liberal values(I am really a conservative leftist). I love Islamic philosophy, love going to the masjid and love everything about Islam except that I find the usage of Allah meaningless in that the very existence of Allah as depicted in the Qur'an is no fundamentally different than nature.
Allah is only depicted as a natural force which governs nature. Countless parts of the Qur'an speak of mountains and stars as if they are miracles which they are not. The miracle of Muhammad is the Qur'an which is highly subjective and anything but a miracle. Everything Islam calls divine is in reality very materialistic and natural.
Even then it goes further in that it gives Allah the attributes of a king, slave owner and serf lord. All of which is 100% anthropomorphic in depiction and does not create anything divine or other worldly.

You can remove Allah from every ayah in the Qur'an and replace it with very common events or characters. Allah made sense for Arabs at that time but in the long run it is essentially an incoherent symbol now when viewed as an external being.

 

[theophilus777]

You make Islam sound pantheistic?

 

[EnemyOfReason]

You make Islam sound pantheistic?

Panentheistic actually since it creates mental conjectures of Allah as well.

I am not arguing for pantheism I am arguing for the undistinguishability of Allah from a natural phenomenon.

23:31 "And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction."

55:5 "The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed."

7:54 "He draws the night as a veil over the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, all governed by laws under his command."

14:33 "And he has made subservient to you the sun and the moon pursuing their courses and he has made subservient to you the night and the day."

21:33 "He it is who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; ALL ORBS travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."

35:13 "He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and he causes the day to enter in upon the night, and he has made subservient to you the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord"

This kind of stuff goes on and on in the Qur'an. None of in which require a divine being.

 

[theophilus777]

I am arguing for the undistinguishability of Allah from a natural phenomenon.

Gotcha. The Bible also teaches panentheism, but makes it a point to distinguish God from the Universe.

 

[steve_bakr]

Panentheistic actually since it creates mental conjectures of Allah as well.

I am not arguing for pantheism I am arguing for the undistinguishability of Allah from a natural phenomenon.

23:31 "And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction."

55:5 "The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed."

7:54 "He draws the night as a veil over the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, all governed by laws under his command."

14:33 "And he has made subservient to you the sun and the moon pursuing their courses and he has made subservient to you the night and the day."

21:33 "He it is who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; ALL ORBS travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."

35:13 "He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and he causes the day to enter in upon the night, and he has made subservient to you the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord"

This kind of stuff goes on and on in the Qur'an. None of in which require a divine being.

I think you are missing the point. To a Muslim, all of these natural events are proof of Allah's sovereignty. The suggestion that all these phenomena occur independently of Allah would be an absurdity.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I think you are missing the point. To a Muslim, all of these natural events are proof of Allah's sovereignty. The suggestion that all these phenomena occur independently of Allah would be an absurdity.

They are relabeling a natural event as a miracle. With this logic I will redefine god to mean matter thus no such thing as atheism exist. This is nothing but a God of the Gaps fallacy played to the extreme

 

[steve_bakr]

They are relabeling a natural event as a miracle. With this logic I will redefine god to mean matter thus no such thing as atheism exist. This is nothing but a God of the Gaps fallacy played to the extreme

Actually, events, processes, and laws in the Universe ARE miraculous. What is untenable is the position that all this which lies before us originated in the absence of Conscious Intelligence.

 

[Targaryen]

Actually, events, processes, and laws in the Universe ARE miraculous. What is untenable is the position that all this which lies before us originated in the absence of Conscious Intelligence.

 

[theophilus777]

Actually, events, processes, and laws in the Universe ARE miraculous. What is untenable is the position that all this which lies before us originated in the absence of Conscious Intelligence.

IOW, The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

And also, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[steve_bakr]

Well I wouldn't call Pagan Arabia a beautiful society but most of the information is correct.

The traditions and practices are very similar to Pagan Arabia. Praying to the Kaaba, circumambulating it, Ramadan, the black stone, etc... They simply changed the meaning behind the stuff. Pagans already had a holy month like Ramadan when they would stop fighting. The Kaaba was simply a Pagan temple and a story about Abraham was created with no basis in the bible or Jewish traditions. The black stone was simply a unique stone which was very common for Pagans to venerate.

Everything in the Quran already existed in the bible, Jewish traditions, Arabic Mythology or Gnostic Christianity. The proof for Muhammad prophethood since he was incapable of doing a miracle was how nice the Quran sounds but that evidence is completely subjective and cannot be tested. If I can't create something as good as the Quran I am supposed to bow down to it and admit it was from God but who is the judge in this contest? If I call on my own witnesses they will affirm that it is better but if I ask a Muslim they will reject it. I can't write like William Shakespeare but this doesn't mean I must admit his stories come from God.

Islam may have some adaptations of pre-Islamic Arab culture but theologically it is not pagan.

 

[dlamberth]

Islam may have some adaptations of pre-Islamic Arab culture but theologically it is not pagan.

I'm unable to think of a single religion that has not carried forward parts of the religion that it was born out of.

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