I am a creationist, but...

[Chinchilla]

Biiiiig gap.

So first God created heaven and earth = physicall and spiritual realm , because God is outside of them . Then he created angels in Spiritual realm , they witness him creating the physicall earth , Satan is rebelling , Earth falls apart then God is re-creating the order in earth , Satan deceive Eve with lie and earth falls apart again .

There is problem with that theory , it assumes that Satan was on earth when he sinned . But we read in Isaiah :

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Satan was in heaven when he sinned and not in earth , and he fallen from there to earth . Does not fit . Moreover it indicated that Satan could go up and down from earth eden to heaven untill the iniquity was found in him and he was cast down to earth .

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So first God created heaven and earth = physicall and spiritual realm , because God is outside of them . Then he created angels in Spiritual realm , they witness him creating the physicall earth , Satan is rebelling , Earth falls apart then God is re-creating the order in earth , Satan deceive Eve with lie and earth falls apart again .

There is problem with that theory , it assumes that Satan was on earth when he sinned . But we read in Isaiah :

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Satan was in heaven when he sinned and not in earth , and he fallen from there to earth . Does not fit . Moreover it indicated that Satan could go up and down from earth eden to heaven untill the iniquity was found in him and he was cast down to earth .

Angels were created first.

Earth was a paradise created for their pleasure (Eden means pleasure).

Lucifer had charge over one-third of angels, on the earth.

Lucifer wanted equality with God and planned his 'ascent' from the earth.

God cast him back to the earth, denying access to the third heaven except for special occasions.

The casting down was part of the destruction of the original "Eden". Those angels, who once likely had beautiful bodies with which to enjoy the earth, were given the bodies of hideous monsters (the dinosaurs) to occupy, which was fitting for their destructive nature.

The 'creation' of Genesis 1 is built upon the ruins of perhaps millions of years of upheaval and destruction. Those angels, now called demons, were stripped of their 'mounts' and now cast about seeking other animals, and humans, to occupy, influence, and outright possess.

 

[Chinchilla]

The 'creation' of Genesis 1 is built upon the ruins of perhaps millions of years of upheaval and destruction. Those angels, now called demons, were stripped of their 'mounts' and now cast about seeking other animals, and humans, to occupy, influence, and outright possess.

I believe angels and demons are different beings , you see angels have body , demons don't . I believe angels raped women and had giants which become demons when thier bodies died .

 

[joshua 1 9]

Ahhh, the stuff of science fiction.

This is science not science fiction. If you are that far from understanding the photographs of the Hubble and the early universe then maybe you should do a little research on the subject. I am talk NASA and what NASA has to say about this subject.

"Astronomers harnessing the combined power of NASA’s Hubble and Spitzer space telescopes have found the faintest object ever seen in the early universe. It existed about 400 million years after the big bang, 13.8 billion years ago."

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...f-the-faintest-galaxy-from-the-early-universe

 

[joshua 1 9]

The casting down was part of the destruction of the original "Eden".

The problem began with Pangea. Satan was angry with God so he wanted to get God's Creation to destroy itself. Even today children get excited about how the dinosaurs would fight with each other and devour each other.

Galations 5 "14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out, or you will be consumed by each other. 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

 

[joshua 1 9]

So a Gap theory ?

The GAP theory is a weak attempt to try to explain why the Bible begins with the earth in a state of ruins.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep."

Jeremiah 4:23
I looked at the earth, and it was formless and void; I looked to the heavens, and they had no light.

We need to look at the Hebrew to do a study on the definition of: "formless and void". Moses and Jeremiah use the same Hebrew words.

 

[miamited]

This is science not science fiction. If you are that far from understanding the photographs of the Hubble and the early universe then maybe you should do a little research on the subject. I am talk NASA and what NASA has to say about this subject.

"Astronomers harnessing the combined power of NASA’s Hubble and Spitzer space telescopes have found the faintest object ever seen in the early universe. It existed about 400 million years after the big bang, 13.8 billion years ago."

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...f-the-faintest-galaxy-from-the-early-universe

Hi joshua,

Just so we understand that all of that treatise is based on one believing that the light of the stars, at the creation event, traveled at the speed of light. The God I serve, can sweep His hand across the vast expanse of the universe and make the light of every star to be visible to eyes upon the earth in the very moment that they were created. Adam, on day six, likely looked at the stars in the heavens just as you and I do. Had there been a space telescope like unto the Hubble, then it too, would have seen that distant galaxy on the day that God created all of the stars of the heavens.

So, let's please be clear that this 'scientific' understanding is based on a pretty big assumption found in the knowledge of man and not necessarily the power of our God.

Your theory says that those stars that the Hubble is seeing must be x number of billions and billions of years old because we know that they are x distance from the earth and therefore, based on man's knowledge today of the speed of light, those stars must have existed billions and billions upon billions of year ago.

My theory says that the day that God created the heavens, every star was set in it's place and given a name and its light was visible upon the earth just as it is today. That just as 'immediately' that God created the earth, He also created all of the stars. That at the moment that they were created, their light was visible to eyes upon the earth. That a Hubble telescope, on the day that God flung the myriad of stars across the universe, would have seen the exact same thing that it sees today.

My theory and understanding is based on the same power of God that can make water congeal on both the right hand and the left hand of a body of people walking through a seabed on dry ground. The same power and authority over His creation that would cause a young peasant Jew to be with child, although having never had sperm introduced into her womb. The same power and authority over His creation that would cause, during a single night, the deaths of each and every first born man and beast of burden. The same power of authority that sneaks a shadow cast by the sun to go backwards ten steps instead of forward, which would be its forever and ever natural progression upon the earth.

The God that I know in the Scriptures makes foolish the wisdom of the wise and has, at least a couple of times, played with the light of the sun in ways that we know is impossible for the light of the sun to act. According to the natural knowledge of man concerning how light from stars is cast.

So, the simple question is merely: Is your knowledge based on the knowledge and wisdom of man, or the power and authority of the God who created this realm? The God who can cause an entire river to run red with blood without a single creature having died to produce that blood. The God who can bring forth from the caverns of the deep and the incessant rains from the clouds enough water to flood the entire earth. What is your knowledge, and the knowledge of NASA, based on?

That's the God I know.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again Joshua,

There's really a very simple way to find out whether the truth that you believe comes from someone who knows the truth. Ask NASA how the sun came to be.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi joshua,

You copied from the Scriptures:

Jeremiah 4:23
I looked at the earth, and it was formless and void; I looked to the heavens, and they had no light.

Do you know what that is telling you?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi oldrunner,

Amen!

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

I am a creationist, but...

BTW steven,

Everyone is a creationist. I don't think that there is anyone who doesn't believe that the stars and the earth exist and that they came to be created somehow. The question isn't really whether or not one is a creationist, so much as 'how' everything was created.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[oldrunner]

Hi joshua,

Just so we understand that all of that treatise is based on one believing that the light of the stars, at the creation event, traveled at the speed of light. The God I serve, can sweep His hand across the vast expanse of the universe and make the light of every star to be visible to eyes upon the earth in the very moment that they were created. Adam, on day six, likely looked at the stars in the heavens just as you and I do. Had there been a space telescope like unto the Hubble, then it too, would have seen that distant galaxy on the day that God created all of the stars of the heavens.

So, let's please be clear that this 'scientific' understanding is based on a pretty big assumption found in the knowledge of man and not necessarily the power of our God.

Your theory says that those stars that the Hubble is seeing must be x number of billions and billions of years old because we know that they are x distance from the earth and therefore, based on man's knowledge today of the speed of light, those stars must have existed billions and billions upon billions of year ago.

My theory says that the day that God created the heavens, every star was set in it's place and given a name and its light was visible upon the earth just as it is today. That just as 'immediately' that God created the earth, He also created all of the stars. That at the moment that they were created, their light was visible to eyes upon the earth. That a Hubble telescope, on the day that God flung the myriad of stars across the universe, would have seen the exact same thing that it sees today.

My theory and understanding is based on the same power of God that can make water congeal on both the right hand and the left hand of a body of people walking through a seabed on dry ground. The same power and authority over His creation that would cause a young peasant Jew to be with child, although having never had sperm introduced into her womb. The same power and authority over His creation that would cause, during a single night, the deaths of each and every first born man and beast of burden. The same power of authority that sneaks a shadow cast by the sun to go backwards ten steps instead of forward, which would be its forever and ever natural progression upon the earth.

The God that I know in the Scriptures makes foolish the wisdom of the wise and has, at least a couple of times, played with the light of the sun in ways that we know is impossible for the light of the sun to act. According to the natural knowledge of man concerning how light from stars is cast.

So, the simple question is merely: Is your knowledge based on the knowledge and wisdom of man, or the power and authority of the God who created this realm? The God who can cause an entire river to run red with blood without a single creature having died to produce that blood. The God who can bring forth from the caverns of the deep and the incessant rains from the clouds enough water to flood the entire earth. What is your knowledge, and the knowledge of NASA, based on?

That's the God I know.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[oldrunner]

Ooops! Got confused on replying to a post.

Ted: Just want to Hi back, and I agree 100% with what you wrote up there!

 

[joshua 1 9]

The God I serve, can sweep His hand across the vast expanse of the universe and make the light of every star to be visible to eyes upon the earth in the very moment that they were created.

I actually had a conversation with God about this when I was a child. I had a dream and He showed me that the Universe was expanding. It was as if I was out in the universe when He was explaining this to me. He said that my family was going to drift apart in the same way. Only someday He would bring the universe back together again and in the say way there would be a time when He would bring my family back together again. So what you are saying does not line up with what God showed me and with what science tells us.

What happens with a dream like this is we learn more about the dream over time. Now I know that my mom is in Heaven and she has a real talent to bring people together. In Heaven there are a lot more people I am related to then here on Earth. So family gatherings in Heaven will be a lot bigger. I do not know what the connection is with that and when God will bring the universe back together again.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Your theory says that

This is not my theory, this is what science teaches us. You need to read science and study this for yourself. I am not here to teach you science. I am not qualified to teach science.

 

[oldrunner]

This is kind of off topic but a nice rabbit trail for sure! Love prophecy!

About Satan being cast down. I believe Ezek. 28, Isa. 14, is no doubt talking about the Antichrist and Satan who is behind him- and his sin. He pretty well thought then, and thinks now, that he can do it all better than God. Kinda like secular mankind today-and us when we live in the flesh.

If we compare with Rev. 12-13, we get the 1/3 of the angels that followed Satan (his tail). This was most likely the Eden event. But we then read that Satan is ready to devour the male child (Jesus), about 4000 years later- through the proclamation of Herod. (Mat. 2:16) Jesus then ascends (about 33 years later).

We then go forward in time even further (2000 years?) to the start of the Great Tribulation where the elect of Israel is protected for 3.5 years. Notice at this time is when Satan and his fallen angles are finally kicked out of heaven for good. The context is a short period of time before the second coming- the Great Tribulation against Israel and Christians that won't take the mark of the beast.

Rev 12:10, shows Satan still has access to the throne now (Job 1-2, Zech. 3, Eph. 6:11-12), because one of his tiles is the "accuser of the brethren".

Hebrews 4:14-16, shows Jesus as our great High Priest, and 1st John 2:1, shows Jesus as our advocate when we sin. Who is accusing us of our sins? Satan. Therefore he is not cast out yet.

At least this is how I interpret things. I am of the Pre-Wrath view point on the second coming, FYI.
Got to go eat! See you guys tomorrow.

 

[miamited]

I actually had a conversation with God about this when I was a child. I had a dream and He showed me that the Universe was expanding. It was as if I was out in the universe when He was explaining this to me. He said that my family was going to drift apart in the same way. Only someday He would bring the universe back together again and in the say way there would be a time when He would bring my family back together again. So what you are saying does not line up with what God showed me and with what science tells us.

What happens with a dream like this is we learn more about the dream over time. Now I know that my mom is in Heaven and she has a real talent to bring people together. In Heaven there are a lot more people I am related to then here on Earth. So family gatherings in Heaven will be a lot bigger. I do not know what the connection is with that and when God will bring the universe back together again.

Hi joshua,

Well, I can neither confirm or deny the source of anyone's dreams. Neither can anyone else. All I have are the sure truths of the Scriptures. So, if you want to depend on some private interpretation that you believe that God has given you in a dream, then you're free to follow that private interpretation. I don't know if what I'm saying lines up with what God showed you privately in some dream, but I can assure you that what I'm saying doesn't line up with the knowledge of man's science.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

This is not my theory, this is what science teaches us. You need to read science and study this for yourself. I am not here to teach you science. I am not qualified to teach science.

Hi joshua,

So, did you find out what 'science', and more specifically since you brought the organization up, NASA, tells you about the creation of the sun? Did you find out the 'scientific' explanation for how water stands in direct contradiction to how its natural properties would allow? Did you seek for the 'scientific' explanation of how a river that is several hundred feet wide was filled with blood although there was no killing going on anywhere in the area that would account for such a massive flow? That even holes dug into the ground seeking for water that was no longer available through the clean water of the river also produced blood?

Personally, I don't think you understand what a miracle is and that anytime God acts within our realm of existence to do something, it is a miracle. Something for which the natural laws that we know of things, our 'scientific' explanations and knowledge, falls apart. There are several dozen miracles found within the pages of the Scriptures. Maybe not all of them are on the size and scale and scope of the creation event, but miracles done by the hand of God all the same. Does you 'science' give you any answers for any of these other events? Does your mind ask the question: How come my 'science' teachers can answer this miracle, but not any of the others?

Anyway friend, you're free to believe that you've been given some private interpretation by God, but since your private interpretation doesn't seem to line up in all points with God's word, you might want to just consider that the source of your private interpretation is not God. But rather the one whose goal is to get you to believe the lie.

BTW, did you determine what Jeremiah was saying in the passage that was posted?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Jon Osterman]

miamited, I would agree that is it perfectly within the power of God to create the world exactly as a literal reading of Genesis would suggest. An omnipotent God has power to change the laws of physics after all. However, I believe you are not reading Genesis correctly. You are reading it as a Gentile, as a Greek, with a modern mindset and not understanding it on the deeper level of a Hebrew and a man of God. God Almightly has given us this wonderful description of the beginning of the universe, and it is our duty to investigate it further. God has given us minds to think, and eyes to see, and an entire universe filled with His natural revelation. To deny this exploration is to deny God. Our scientific inquiry as to the origins of the universe is not ungodly, quite the opposite, it is our divine obligation. And God is not a God of trickery - he has not laid traps for us in His revelation. He takes delight in our observations and our interest in the work He has made.

 

[miamited]

miamited, I would agree that is it perfectly within the power of God to create the world exactly as a literal reading of Genesis would suggest. An omnipotent God has power to change the laws of physics after all. However, I believe you are not reading Genesis correctly. You are reading it as a Gentile, as a Greek, with a modern mindset and not understanding it on the deeper level of a Hebrew and a man of God. God Almightly has given us this wonderful description of the beginning of the universe, and it is our duty to investigate it further. God has given us minds to think, and eyes to see, and an entire universe filled with His natural revelation. To deny this exploration is to deny God. Our scientific inquiry as to the origins of the universe is not ungodly, quite the opposite, it is our divine obligation. And God is not a God of trickery - he has not laid traps for us in His revelation. He takes delight in our observations and our interest in the work He has made.

Hi jon,

Your input is appreciated, but I'm not in agreement with your understanding. The creation account seems to be just a simple and straightforward account that God has given us to answer the question that we all have: How we got here. I don't find that the explanation seems to be filled with spiritual meanings that are hidden to the casual observer as you may think that a gentile is.

I understand that there is a part of the believer's thinking that most everything we read in the Scriptures is really some account from which we are to derive hidden meanings, but I don't subscribe to that understanding in most of the Scriptures. I do understand that when we see how God deals with a particular issue with the men and women of the Scriptures, that we can pretty well accept that since God doesn't change, He may deal with us today in much the same way. However, the creation account isn't such a discourse or explanation.

I believe that I am understanding it as most Jews in Israel in the days leading up to Jesus understood it. After all, they set their calendar on the truth of God's creation account. But, I do allow that each is free to believe as they will.

For me, God has given a fairly concise and accurate account of the big picture of His creating work from which He rested after the six days. I would, however, be interested in hearing your understanding of what it is that you believe we should derive from this account apart from what it seems to simply say. I find that it's easy for one to say that the account isn't as specific as it seems, but rather we are to discern hidden or spiritual or unspoken meanings from the words. However, I'm still at a loss as to what those hidden or spiritual or unspoken meanings are supposed to be, and how one knows that they have discerned such things correctly. There are a lot of people who unrightly divide the Scriptures. That is plain in Peter's admonitions to us about false teachers: But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Here we find that Peter warns the reader that while there were false prophets in the days of the old covenant, there will be false teachers in the days of the new. People who teach wrongly what the Scriptures are actually saying. Now, that could be me, or that could be you. Since our understandings are contradictory in nature, it must be one of us. I believe that the Scriptures teach that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. That those days, defined as consisting of an evening and a morning, were so defined for the very purpose of our understanding that those days passed just as any day that we live through today. That every day that we live that is approximately twenty four hours has within that time frame the passing of an evening and a morning. God, who knows the end from the beginning, surely knew that the discussion of these 'days' would be forever a stumbling block to us and our own puffed up wisdom. So, He purposefully didn't just say that He did such and such and thus ended the first day. No! Not at all. He caused to be written that there was then an evening and a morning, the first day.

I say that's the truth. You seem to not agree. It cannot both be true that the creation of this realm was some long ages of days and merely six pretty much 24 hour days consisting of an evening and a morning as the Scriptures declare. One of us is not teaching the truth.

Now, there are those who proclaim that the days themselves were very long ages. But, that means that the earth would have turned excruciatingly slowly upon its axis, as that is what determines a day. The earth would have turned at mere millimeters/hour for a day to have taken ages to complete. We see this on the planet Venus. It takes that planet the equivalent of 116 of our days for a day to pass and yet it is about the same size as the earth. Just imagine how slow the earth would need to turn for a day to take ages to pass.

I know that it isn't proper etiquette in these days to say that someone isn't telling the truth, but while it may not be proper to say, the ultimate outcome of your understanding against mine is that one of us doesn't know the truth and, therefore, when we speak of our personal understandings, isn't teaching the truth. I would never deny someone the right to tell me that I am lying, if it can in fact, be shown that I am.

So again, if you would be so kind, as to offer up your explanation of exactly what it is that God is trying to teach us through the account of the creation that isn't just the simple account of how He created this realm in which we live.

God bless,
In Christ, ted