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I am a creationist, but...

NobleMouse

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Job suggests a perfect creation in the very beginning.
Isaiah suggests that perfection continued until the rebellion.
Jude suggests a change in the angelic habitation.
Thank you for these references. I don't see that these give the impression of multiple ruin/restoration events, but understand these are sometimes cited in support of this view. I will agree that Genesis/Job are in accord with creation being "very good" in the beginning and that this continued until the fall - and point to Romans 5:12 in support that the perfection of creation continued until Adam's sin (not Satan's rebellion). From what the Bible does say, I don't see any indication that Satan's rebellion had occurred before the creation of Adam. All we know is that Satan's rebellion occurred sometime after Satan was created and before Adam & Eve were tempted in the Garden... nowhere negating that Satan rebelled after the creation of man.

Geology reveals a pattern of ruin/restoration going back perhaps billions of years, but doesn't credit a singular event that began the process, or caused it to repeat.
This is really where I believe the idea of patterns of ruin/restoration come from - geological interpretations and assumptions... outside of God's word.

Genesis One begins (verse 2) with yet another restoration. The Deluge account records yet another cycle, thus establishing a pattern, and a reason for it.
This is the only documented event in the Bible I am aware of where God was sorry He created man and destroyed all life on the face of the earth, with the exceptions noted (Noah & family, 2 of every kind...). Since sin began with Adam, it would seem peculiar to assume God would have destroyed/restored many times before with no apparent reason.
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While I think we have different views around creation, I do very much appreciate your input.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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This is really where I believe the idea of patterns of ruin/restoration come from - geological interpretations and assumptions... outside of God's word.

Redemption from the effects of sin is also a pattern of ruin/restoration for man. The same pattern occurs in nature, even today. So the pattern seems to be...universal.
 
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KWCrazy

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What causes doubt is that the biblical account and the physical evidence don't agree. We need to revisit the 'translation' as the physical evidence won't change. So many dinosaurs living with early man yet no mention of them in any history and no physical evidence that we occupied the earth at the same time.
Man had an oral history long before he had a written history. Even after the written word was created it wasn't common among men until the Scriptures began being published in great numbers around 1500 AD. Why would you expect people who don't read or write to record events commonplace in their time?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Man had an oral history long before he had a written history. Even after the written word was created it wasn't common among men until the Scriptures began being published in great numbers around 1500 AD. Why would you expect people who don't read or write to record events commonplace in their time?

Written histories are very old and quite detailed, and would certainly include the presence of dinosaurs. And, don't require broad readership by the general population to be valid.

The World's Oldest Writing - Archaeology Magazine
 
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SkyWriting

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an anyone from either side of the debate tell me how much time passed between the passages: "In the beginning..." of Genesis 1:1 and "Now, the Earth had become..." of Genesis 1:2?

Knowing is in the opposite direction from faith.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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SkyWriting

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What causes doubt is that the biblical account and the physical evidence don't agree. We need to revisit the 'translation' as the physical evidence won't change. So many dinosaurs living with early man yet no mention of them in any history and no physical evidence that we occupied the earth at the same time.

Except for the detailed descriptions by the chinese.

elements-chinese-dragons-vector-id973942942

NTilpaQ1.jpg
 
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KWCrazy

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Written histories are very old and quite detailed, and would certainly include the presence of dinosaurs. And, don't require broad readership by the general population to be valid.

The World's Oldest Writing - Archaeology Magazine
Nonsense. Dinosaurs did not survive the Great Flood. Writing did not exist then. There ARE wall carvings that resemble dinosaurs and other strange sights.
 
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trophy33

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Nonsense. Dinosaurs did not survive the Great Flood. Writing did not exist then. There ARE wall carvings that resemble dinosaurs and other strange sights.

I have seen Jurassic Park/World movies. It does not mean it happened in my life.

Ancient people were able to do the same thing we do today - to draw more or less how dinosaurs looked like based upon skeletons they found.

And it surely got into legends as "dragons".
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Nonsense. Dinosaurs did not survive the Great Flood. Writing did not exist then. There ARE wall carvings that resemble dinosaurs and other strange sights.

What "then" are you referring to? The article reveals writing several millennia ago.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Except for the detailed descriptions by the chinese.

elements-chinese-dragons-vector-id973942942

NTilpaQ1.jpg

Born from their mythology no doubt. Even primitive cultures have 'dragons' and 'snakes' (clearly representing the devil) in their 'history'.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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all the way to the end when we learn of spiritual re-birth in Christ.

"Creationism Vs. Darwinism"

I think I had a thought or two God gave me about this, and they go something like this:

That a day to the eternal One is not a 24 hour earth day. It's as long as He decides it is, because a million years is no time at all to Someone that exists outside of time. "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."-2Peter3:8
And 1000 is likely used because it's a number that was near the upper limit of human understanding at the time of the epistle being written.

That evolution is the process of creation, and so creation is done through the process of elemental and consequent biological evolution.

***Run-on sentence warning***

That the sequence of creation, as illustrated in Genesis, has more or less been verified by the scientific theory of evolution. (i.e. first a void with only a single Being, then space and elements, then environments of varying natures[wet, dry, hot,cold] then simple lives like bacteria and plants filling those places, then more complex lives created by compiling the preexisting simpler systems [grasses, to flowering plants, flowering plants to shrubs, shrubs to trees, etc], by this way every niche gets filled, the seas fill up with creatures that will become fish, fish become every type of fish according to the niche they're filling, some fish will lead to lungfish and mudskipper-types, that lead to amphibians, amphibians lead to reptiles, reptiles lead to both birds and small mammals, reptiles get as big as they will until God sends their walking papers(big boom). The small and or airborne reptiles and mammals survive because they are more mobile, and require less sustenance to carry on their mojos. As the ecological state re-stabilizes they become every type of mammal, reptile, and bird, according to the ecological niche they're filling. Eventually a mammalian body currently called a homo sapiens is created, thus agreeing with Genesis that mankind was the last created being of note on record and so also, according to the evolutionists, the most recent newcomer on the scene.

So there is an obvious direction, which would imply intent; from inanimate elements to animate ones, simple systems to complex ones compiled of the simple ones, from the Singular come the many and diverse, through the rough edged imperfections of nature and its impulses comes the perfection of Jesus Christ's example of what the Father, in Whom all these things live and breathe and have their existence, expects from His children. Not the world's children, for a homo sapiens is only a collection of biological functions, but His children, meaning those whom He wills to awaken to human-being-hood (more than just the instinctual monkey-suit they are wearing). And it was all, is all, and will always be deliberate. And none of it has ever or will ever happen by chance. And never did a leaf or will a leaf fall from a tree, or the number of hairs on anyone's head be unknown to He in whom, by whom, through whom all these wonders come into, endure for a time, and then leave, existence. What it is, it was, and ever shall be.

Just because a homo sapiens named Charles Darwin was created, and was given the faculties and the revelation that would come to elucidate the process of creation, doesn't mean God could or would ever stop existing. It means that those predestined to only see the material, superficial workings of creation will barely be able to comprehend and prove those, so the odds of their coming to understand, know, or believe on He that is working invisibly behind the surface are slim and none.

Praise, Glory, and blessedness be to God in the highest, for He is all, does all, and wills all.
 
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