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I am a creationist, but...

oldrunner

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miamited, I would agree that is it perfectly within the power of God to create the world exactly as a literal reading of Genesis would suggest. An omnipotent God has power to change the laws of physics after all. However, I believe you are not reading Genesis correctly. You are reading it as a Gentile, as a Greek, with a modern mindset and not understanding it on the deeper level of a Hebrew and a man of God. God Almightly has given us this wonderful description of the beginning of the universe, and it is our duty to investigate it further. God has given us minds to think, and eyes to see, and an entire universe filled with His natural revelation. To deny this exploration is to deny God. Our scientific inquiry as to the origins of the universe is not ungodly, quite the opposite, it is our divine obligation. And God is not a God of trickery - he has not laid traps for us in His revelation. He takes delight in our observations and our interest in the work He has made.

Jon,
Where do you get that to deny exploration is to deny God and it's our divine obligation? :scratch: Only a true believer in Jesus can give proper credit where it's do and glorify God for His creation. Secular man only glorifies evolution and the creation, and not the Creator, and only turns mankind away from the Bible and the Creator. (Romans 1:18-25)

If we cannot understand the literal 7 day, 24 hour week-that has been in effect since day one, something we can all still observe now, how can we understand and trust the simple message that Jesus was/is our Savior and died on the cross for our sins? I mean, this is the crux of these arguments.

Our understanding of all theses things must come from the inspired word of God, and not observation. Only when our observation lines up with what the Bible teaches (pretty plainly IMO), do we have the truth that glorifies God.
 
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miamited

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Hi brocke,

You wrote:
Also you confuse a time measurement 13.4 billion years with a distance measurement 7,800 light years. They are not the similar.

That is not an entirely true statement. A light year is both a time and distance measurement. It is the distance that light travels in a stated period of time. So, when one says that something is fifteen light years away, they mean to say that it is the distance that light travels in span of time, a year, multiplied by fifteen. If that were not the case, then the scientists who are making these claims from the evidence culled from the Hubble telescope wouldn't be able to say that these images were from 13.4 billion years ago (a time measurement). They are using the 'light year' to explain a distance which then equates to a time measurement.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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joshua 1 9

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Personally, I don't think you understand what a miracle
As a general rule YOU are GUILTY of what you accuse others of. So you admit you do not know what a miracle is. I will tell you. A miracle is a restoration to God plan and purpose. It is difficult to prove a miracle because you have to prove that there was a problem in the first place.

After 40 years of smoking I had congestive heart failure according to my doctor. My lungs filled up with fluids, I quite breathing and my heart stopped. So my wife called 911 and they used a defibrillator to get my heart beating again. Later on I talked to the Fire Chief and I asked him IF the heart is NOT beating when they arrive on the scene what is the chance that they can get that heart beating again. I was told 1 in 1500 although some people would say 1 in 1200. That is my miracle that I know. NOW sense you claim to know about miracles give me your testimony, tell me about your miracle.

If anyone wants to know about why the brain is more sensitive to oxygen deprivation here is an article on the subject. It is actually only emergency room physicians that have studied how to revive and resuscitate people. Because of my experience I did a bit of research on the subject to see what is going on when the brain is not getting a fresh supply of oxygen.

http://www.salud.carlosslim.org/eng...tive-to-oxygen-deprivation-than-other-organs/
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joshua 1 9

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hidden meanings,

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: kjv 2cor4:3

I'm still at a loss as to what those hidden or spiritual or unspoken meanings are supposed to be,
I find when I study the Hebrew Language that there is so much meaning to the words that it will take the rest of my life just to begin to understand. Look at the very first word in the Bible: "beginning". IF we understood the word "beginning" we would see all of the Bible contained in that word because God knows the end from the beginning. Jesus is the Alpha & the Omega, He is the beginning and the end. HE was there with God in the Beginning. This is why David tells us that God writes the book of our life before we are even born. God has ever page written, because He gives us all of our individual gifts, talents and abilities. Our angel reads the book of our life so they know how to work in our life to help us to be the person God plans and intends for us to be.

bringing swift destruction on themselves.
According to the passage that you quote from Peter false teaches bring swift destruction. How do we explain people that have been around for a long time? If someone has been preaching and teaching the same sermons for over 50 years could this be false when Peter says false teachers bring swift destruction on themselves?

I believe that the Scriptures teach that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.
Moses makes it clear in the psalms that a day is 1000 years. So we know that the beginning was around 12,900 years ago. God tells us in Genesis 1:14 that there will be signs in the sky. The minor prophets talk about this. We can do a google search on a nano diamond comet and we can see that God does give us these nano diamonds as a sign for when our current age began.

We know that a massive extinction took place 13,000 years ago. 90% of the population went extinct and a remnant or 10% of the population repopulated the earth. This is common and this was actually the 6th mass extinction to take place on this planet. Along with the population explosion or radiation that takes place after an extinction event. Again I can not get into all the details because many many books would need to be written to explain all of what was happening. AS I said GOD is eternal and so it is not easy to keep the subject short and concise.

The point is we have science and the Bible. My father was a medical doctor for over 50 years and he trusted in Science. There is a LOT science can not do and we have to turn to God for help. In the same way we have science and the Bible and they agree with each other 100%. We use the Bible to confirm our science is true and we can use science to confirm out Bible is true.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/01/02/comet.diamonds/index.html
 
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miamited

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Hi joshua,

I don't have a miracle story to tell. I proclaim the miracle stories of God.

For the record, if there is a one in 1200 or 1500 chance of resuscitating a heart that has stopped, then for one heart to be resuscitated is not a miracle. It is certainly beating slim odds, but not a miracle in the true definition of a miracle. All of that is going to depend on the strength of the heart. One's will to live may also be a determining factor. Generally speaking, if a person's heart stops beating for more than 20 minutes, the brain cells will begin to die. However, the beginning of brain cell death is not quite the same as bodily death. But all of this is generally speaking. Some people can go longer and some people can't go that long without their heart beating and still be resuscitated with little brain cell damage.

However, just to review the evidence, according to this site: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK321505/
the cardiac resuscitation rate runs about 11% with some medical EMS units having slightly better averages. Based on that number, out of 1500 cardiac arrest calls handled by EMS services, about 170 will be resuscitated. Now, you can believe your fire chief or you can believe backed up statistical data produced by the National Center for Biotechnology information. This number also matches pretty closely with CPR facts that claim that overall, about 90% of cardiac arrest patients can be resuscitated. See here: https://cpr.heart.org/AHAECC/CPRAnd...tsAndStats/UCM_475748_CPR-Facts-and-Stats.jsp
This site makes the claim that if CPR is administered by someone at the scene, either a loved one or a bystander, the rate can actually be about 45% of patients can be revived.

You were certainly blessed that God brought you back from the brink of death, but it isn't a miracle to be revived after cardiac arrest unless it is physically impossible to resuscitate a stopped heart. I certainly don't want to rain on your parade and I believe you should give thanks daily to God for all that He has done for you, but when the Scriptures speak of a miracle, they are speaking of things that no man can do or that the physical and natural properties of things preclude being possible to happen.

I would agree that you and I are not defining a miracle the same way.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

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But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: kjv 2cor4:3

I find when I study the Hebrew Language that there is so much meaning to the words that it will take the rest of my life just to begin to understand. Look at the very first word in the Bible: "beginning". IF we understood the word "beginning" we would see all of the Bible contained in that word because God knows the end from the beginning. Jesus is the Alpha & the Omega, He is the beginning and the end. HE was there with God in the Beginning. This is why David tells us that God writes the book of our life before we are even born. God has ever page written, because He gives us all of our individual gifts, talents and abilities. Our angel reads the book of our life so they know how to work in our life to help us to be the person God plans and intends for us to be.

According to the passage that you quote from Peter false teaches bring swift destruction. How do we explain people that have been around for a long time? If someone has been preaching and teaching the same sermons for over 50 years could this be false when Peter says false teachers bring swift destruction on themselves?

Moses makes it clear in the psalms that a day is 1000 years. So we know that the beginning was around 12,900 years ago. God tells us in Genesis 1:14 that there will be signs in the sky. The minor prophets talk about this. We can do a google search on a nano diamond comet and we can see that God does give us these nano diamonds as a sign for when our current age began.

We know that a massive extinction took place 13,000 years ago. 90% of the population went extinct and a remnant or 10% of the population repopulated the earth. This is common and this was actually the 6th mass extinction to take place on this planet. Along with the population explosion or radiation that takes place after an extinction event. Again I can not get into all the details because many many books would need to be written to explain all of what was happening. AS I said GOD is eternal and so it is not easy to keep the subject short and concise.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/01/02/comet.diamonds/index.html

Hi joshua,

Ok, well, it's been a pleasure speaking with you on this subject.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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joshua 1 9

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Hi joshua,

I don't have a miracle story to tell. I proclaim the miracle stories of God.

For the record, if there is a one in 1200 or 1500 chance of resuscitating a heart that has stopped, then for one heart to be resuscitated is not a miracle. It is certainly beating slim odds, but not a miracle in the true definition of a miracle. All of that is going to depend on the strength of the heart. One's will to live may also be a determining factor. Generally speaking, if a person's heart stops beating for more than 20 minutes, the brain cells will begin to die. However, the beginning of brain cell death is not quite the same as bodily death. But all of this is generally speaking. Some people can go longer and some people can't go that long without their heart beating and still be resuscitated with little brain cell damage.

However, just to review the evidence, according to this site: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK321505/
the cardiac resuscitation rate runs about 11% with some medical EMS units having slightly better averages. Based on that number, out of 1500 cardiac arrest calls handled by EMS services, about 170 will be resuscitated. Now, you can believe your fire chief or you can believe backed up statistical data produced by the National Center for Biotechnology information. This number also matches pretty closely with CPR facts that claim that overall, about 90% of cardiac arrest patients can be resuscitated. See here: https://cpr.heart.org/AHAECC/CPRAnd...tsAndStats/UCM_475748_CPR-Facts-and-Stats.jsp
This site makes the claim that if CPR is administered by someone at the scene, either a loved one or a bystander, the rate can actually be about 45% of patients can be revived.

You were certainly blessed that God brought you back from the brink of death, but it isn't a miracle to be revived after cardiac arrest unless it is physically impossible to resuscitate a stopped heart. I certainly don't want to rain on your parade and I believe you should give thanks daily to God for all that He has done for you, but when the Scriptures speak of a miracle, they are speaking of things that no man can do or that the physical and natural properties of things preclude being possible to happen.

I would agree that you and I are not defining a miracle the same way.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
I clicked on your link and they say: "About 90 percent of people who experience an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest die." I think that only 10% of the people represent God. (many are called few are chosen) Even though Zechariah (13:9) we are told that God is going to save one third of the people. So if I can find myself in a group that only 10% of the people find themselves in, then I have confidence that I will qualify to be in a group of 1/3 of the people that God is going to redeem.

"This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

Interesting conversation though, tks.
 
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Job 33:6

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Actually, more mention of the dinosaurs in history than any physical evidence we find today. I understand most dinosaur skeletons in museums are constructed based on a single bone or two.

So probably it's your belief about the physical evidence being inconsistent with the biblical account which is in error.

Some fossils are constructed using just a few bones. But dinosaurs in particular are relatively prevalent in the succession. And many dinosaurs, particularly popular ones, are constructed using large portions of skeletons. At least in major museums around me, and I would know because i have worked at these museums and am familiar with their collections to some extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus#Notable_specimens

For example, regarding popular dinosaurs like T rex,
Sue Hendrickson, amateur paleontologist, discovered the most complete (approximately 85%) and the largest Tyrannosaurus fossil skeleton known in the Hell Creek Formation near Faith, South Dakota, on August 12, 1990.

Another Tyrannosaurus, nicknamed Stan, in honor of amateur paleontologist Stan Sacrison, was found in the Hell Creek Formation near Buffalo, South Dakota, in the spring of 1987.Stan is 63% complete and is on display in the Black Hills Institute of Geological Research in Hill City, South Dakota, after an extensive world tour during 1995 and 1996.[36]

In the summer of 2000, Jack Horner discovered five Tyrannosaurus skeletons near the Fort Peck Reservoir in Montana. One of the specimens was reported to be perhaps the largest Tyrannosaurus ever found.[62]


The specimens "Sue", AMNH 5027, "Stan", and "Jane", to scale with a human.
In 2001, a 50% complete skeleton of a juvenile Tyrannosaurus was discovered in the Hell Creek Formation in Montana, by a crew from the Burpee Museum of Natural History of Rockford, Illinois.




Most popular dinosaurs have relatively good collections.
 
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miamited

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Hi komatite,

You wrote:
Some fossils are constructed using just a few bones. But dinosaurs in particular are relatively prevalent in the succession. And many dinosaurs, particularly popular ones, are constructed using large portions of skeletons. At least in major museums around me, and I would know because i have worked at these museums and am familiar with their collections to some extent.

I have zero knowledge of the work of putting together the skeletons that we see in museums, however...

You do realize, I hope, that fossils are not the same as finding bones. We don't generally 'construct' fossils. We can certainly make what appear to be fossils by taking an object and encasing it in plaster or concrete of some kind and then removing the object after the material has set.

The very fact that we have any such evidence as bones would belie some hundred thousand or million year old age for such things. Bones are organic and, as the Lord proclaims, ashes to ashes and dust to dust they become. If the actual bones that we find are intact at all, it would generally mean that they are likely only a few thousand years old and not millions. Here's a copy of a statement from 'scienceabc.com':

In humid conditions, bones might be broken down in a matter of a decade or so, but in a dry climate, it could take thousands of years! Bones do decay, just at a slower rate than other types of organic material and tissue.

Now, there are a few explanations that are given as to why we find bones if the age of the dinosaurs is expected to be many hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago. But there isn't any proof that such explanations actually do explain why we have bones around today. We don't have any way of putting a bone in the conditions that are prescribed and then waiting thousands or millions of years to see if they do, in fact, not decay over such long periods of time. Again, such explanations are based on assumptions that haven't actually been proven to be true.

Fossils, of course, will last much, much longer, but the requirements for an organic matter to become fossilized match better with the biblical account of the flood than any other known event. The flood, as far as we know, is the only event that occurred so rapidly, within a few days, to have entombed animals in a manner that would create fossils from their forms. Here's a statement concerning that process:

The most common process of fossilization happens when an animal is buried by sediment, such as sand or silt, shortly after it dies. Its bones are protected from rotting by layers of sediment.

Generally, an animal dies in the wild and its skin, muscles and bones fairly quickly become dust. This is evidenced by the fact that our forests are not filled with skeletal remains. An animal must die and be very quickly covered for the fossilization process to work. So, just the fact that dinosaurs lived in South Dakota doesn't explain the ages that scientists are prone to date such evidences as their bones being found, generally in a dig of some kind. However, the area of land that we now know as South Dakota, being covered rapidly with the enormous amounts of silt awash in the waters of the flood does offer a much more plausible explanation.

Some say that glacial movement may explain the phenomenon, but there isn't any verified proof that South Dakota was ever covered by glaciers or that they grew or moved fast enough to have covered up a bunch of animals alive. Thereby entombing them. I believe, and yes I know this stands in direct contradiction to what 'science' tells us, that what we think we know about glaciers isn't as truthful as the reality of such masses.

If the earth is the age that God's word seems to pretty clearly indicate, then there haven't ever been glaciers that covered much more of the earth than they have since we've known about them. Science will tell us otherwise, but again, I'm not so confident of the wisdom of men as I am the wisdom and word of God.

Here's some further interesting reading on the subject: https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/unearthing-dinosaur-bones-and-fossils/

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Hi komatite,

You wrote:


I have zero knowledge of the work of putting together the skeletons that we see in museums, however...

You do realize, I hope, that fossils are not the same as finding bones. We don't generally 'construct' fossils. We can certainly make what appear to be fossils by taking an object and encasing it in plaster or concrete of some kind and then removing the object after the material has set.

The very fact that we have any such evidence as bones would belie some hundred thousand or million year old age for such things. Bones are organic and, as the Lord proclaims, ashes to ashes and dust to dust they become. If the actual bones that we find are intact at all, it would generally mean that they are likely only a few thousand years old and not millions. Here's a copy of a statement from 'scienceabc.com':

In humid conditions, bones might be broken down in a matter of a decade or so, but in a dry climate, it could take thousands of years! Bones do decay, just at a slower rate than other types of organic material and tissue.

Now, there are a few explanations that are given as to why we find bones if the age of the dinosaurs is expected to be many hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago. But there isn't any proof that such explanations actually do explain why we have bones around today. We don't have any way of putting a bone in the conditions that are prescribed and then waiting thousands or millions of years to see if they do, in fact, not decay over such long periods of time. Again, such explanations are based on assumptions that haven't actually been proven to be true.

Fossils, of course, will last much, much longer, but the requirements for an organic matter to become fossilized match better with the biblical account of the flood than any other known event. The flood, as far as we know, is the only event that occurred so rapidly, within a few days, to have entombed animals in a manner that would create fossils from their forms. Here's a statement concerning that process:

The most common process of fossilization happens when an animal is buried by sediment, such as sand or silt, shortly after it dies. Its bones are protected from rotting by layers of sediment.

Generally, an animal dies in the wild and its skin, muscles and bones fairly quickly become dust. This is evidenced by the fact that our forests are not filled with skeletal remains. An animal must die and be very quickly covered for the fossilization process to work. So, just the fact that dinosaurs lived in South Dakota doesn't explain the ages that scientists are prone to date such evidences as their bones being found, generally in a dig of some kind. However, the area of land that we now know as South Dakota, being covered rapidly with the enormous amounts of silt awash in the waters of the flood does offer a much more plausible explanation.

Some say that glacial movement may explain the phenomenon, but there isn't any verified proof that South Dakota was ever covered by glaciers or that they grew or moved fast enough to have covered up a bunch of animals alive. Thereby entombing them. I believe, and yes I know this stands in direct contradiction to what 'science' tells us, that what we think we know about glaciers isn't as truthful as the reality of such masses.

If the earth is the age that God's word seems to pretty clearly indicate, then there haven't ever been glaciers that covered much more of the earth than they have since we've known about them. Science will tell us otherwise, but again, I'm not so confident of the wisdom of men as I am the wisdom and word of God.

Here's some further interesting reading on the subject: https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/unearthing-dinosaur-bones-and-fossils/

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Im not here to debate whether or not the planet is old or young. I was just informing the other person that we actually have large collections of dinosaur bones.

If you would like to get into a discussion about the flood though, feel free to post in one of my signature links or in other topics that I am involved with.

Thanks,
 
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miamited

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Im not here to debate whether or not the planet is old or young. I was just informing the other person that we actually have large collections of dinosaur bones.

If you would like to get into a discussion about the flood though, feel free to post in one of my signature links or in other topics that I am involved with.

Thanks,

Hi komatite,

Thanks for your reply. I agree that this discussion is a bit off course with the OP's question.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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joshua 1 9

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Can anyone from either side of the debate tell me how much time passed between the passages: "In the beginning..." of Genesis 1:1 and "Now, the Earth had become..." of Genesis 1:2?
Nahmanides taught that although the days are 24 hours each, they contain "kol yemot ha-olam" - all the ages and all the secrets of the world.

For OEC each day is half the length of the day before. For dispensationalists each day is 1,000 years.

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

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if a person cannot get past a literal Genesis as written then the rest of his word is irrelevant.
There are 31 verses in Genesis ch 1 & 31,000 verses in the Bible. In the Harvard library are over 200,000 science books that explain those 31 verses in Genesis Chapter One.

Every book in the world would not be enough to explain the Bible. If you send 8 hours a day for 40 years you would just be getting started. Even you could spend your whole life just to understand the meaning of the very first word in the Bible: Beginning. Genesis Ch 1 is the Beginning, Gensis ch 2 are the generations, Gensis ch 3 talks about the Serpent and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

John 21 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

God declares the end from the beginning. His Word always accomplishes His purpose. Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." The problems did not begin until the serpent in ch 3. Although Noah's flood is a shadow and a type of what happened 200 million years ago at the breakup of Pangaea.
 
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So many dinosaurs living with early man yet no mention of them in any history and no physical evidence that we occupied the earth at the same time.
It is not possible for the dinosaurs and man to occupy the earth at the same time. The atmosphere at the time of Pangaea had a lot more water. The sky was pink back then compared to the Blue color we see now. We do cohabit-ate with Turtles and Crocodiles. Like the dinosaurs they require very wet climate and they continue to grow the longer they live. If we look at the Rocky Mountains we see that the dinosaurs we find there died at the same time during a flood. We can see this an example of this at the dinosaur museum in Utah. They also find dinosaur remains from a flood in New Mexico and Montana. All the way through the Rocky Mountains. The earth is about 4.54 billion years old and the first life dates to at least 3.5 billion years ago, the first primates did not appear until around 50-55 million years ago.

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there does not seem to be a consensus among creationists about many things. Yet, I read numerous arguments against creationism as if it were some unified doctrine.

What puzzles me the most is the constant ruckus over the age of the earth, as if this were the whole of the matter. If creationists do not all agree on the age of the Earth, how can science disproving one theory constitute refutation of creation?

Can anyone from either side of the debate tell me how much time passed between the passages: "In the beginning..." of Genesis 1:1 and "Now, the Earth had become..." of Genesis 1:2?

What we see there is the establishment of the setting. That setting is one of re-creation. Then the narrative goes on to briefly summarize a world before a catastrophe (the flood) and a new beginning. This pattern of renewal/rebirth is then repeated and re-experienced in different ways and on different levels, through bondage and redemption, exile and restoration, etc. all the way to the end when we learn of spiritual re-birth in Christ.


No, no one can tell you how much time passed between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, but it would appear to have been a long time. It's reasonable to assume the universe has been here a long time. This can be concluded by the sheer size of the universe, and how light travels. The Cambrian explosion would suggest this as well.

The age of the universe and earth is a distrction from what is important, because what is key is not when the earth was created, but when life was created. It doesn't matter if life were created on a rock hours old or billions of years old.
 
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NobleMouse

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Job 38:6-7

6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Isaiah 14:
12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Jude:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Thank you for these verses. Where does this paint the picture of a repetitive cycle of ruin/restoration that would span the billions of years that secular scientists assert as the history/age of the earth?
 
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NobleMouse

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Hi jon,

Your input is appreciated, but I'm not in agreement with your understanding. The creation account seems to be just a simple and straightforward account that God has given us to answer the question that we all have: How we got here. I don't find that the explanation seems to be filled with spiritual meanings that are hidden to the casual observer as you may think that a gentile is.

I understand that there is a part of the believer's thinking that most everything we read in the Scriptures is really some account from which we are to derive hidden meanings, but I don't subscribe to that understanding in most of the Scriptures. I do understand that when we see how God deals with a particular issue with the men and women of the Scriptures, that we can pretty well accept that since God doesn't change, He may deal with us today in much the same way. However, the creation account isn't such a discourse or explanation.

I believe that I am understanding it as most Jews in Israel in the days leading up to Jesus understood it. After all, they set their calendar on the truth of God's creation account. But, I do allow that each is free to believe as they will.

For me, God has given a fairly concise and accurate account of the big picture of His creating work from which He rested after the six days. I would, however, be interested in hearing your understanding of what it is that you believe we should derive from this account apart from what it seems to simply say. I find that it's easy for one to say that the account isn't as specific as it seems, but rather we are to discern hidden or spiritual or unspoken meanings from the words. However, I'm still at a loss as to what those hidden or spiritual or unspoken meanings are supposed to be, and how one knows that they have discerned such things correctly. There are a lot of people who unrightly divide the Scriptures. That is plain in Peter's admonitions to us about false teachers: But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Here we find that Peter warns the reader that while there were false prophets in the days of the old covenant, there will be false teachers in the days of the new. People who teach wrongly what the Scriptures are actually saying. Now, that could be me, or that could be you. Since our understandings are contradictory in nature, it must be one of us. I believe that the Scriptures teach that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. That those days, defined as consisting of an evening and a morning, were so defined for the very purpose of our understanding that those days passed just as any day that we live through today. That every day that we live that is approximately twenty four hours has within that time frame the passing of an evening and a morning. God, who knows the end from the beginning, surely knew that the discussion of these 'days' would be forever a stumbling block to us and our own puffed up wisdom. So, He purposefully didn't just say that He did such and such and thus ended the first day. No! Not at all. He caused to be written that there was then an evening and a morning, the first day.

I say that's the truth. You seem to not agree. It cannot both be true that the creation of this realm was some long ages of days and merely six pretty much 24 hour days consisting of an evening and a morning as the Scriptures declare. One of us is not teaching the truth.

Now, there are those who proclaim that the days themselves were very long ages. But, that means that the earth would have turned excruciatingly slowly upon its axis, as that is what determines a day. The earth would have turned at mere millimeters/hour for a day to have taken ages to complete. We see this on the planet Venus. It takes that planet the equivalent of 116 of our days for a day to pass and yet it is about the same size as the earth. Just imagine how slow the earth would need to turn for a day to take ages to pass.

I know that it isn't proper etiquette in these days to say that someone isn't telling the truth, but while it may not be proper to say, the ultimate outcome of your understanding against mine is that one of us doesn't know the truth and, therefore, when we speak of our personal understandings, isn't teaching the truth. I would never deny someone the right to tell me that I am lying, if it can in fact, be shown that I am.

So again, if you would be so kind, as to offer up your explanation of exactly what it is that God is trying to teach us through the account of the creation that isn't just the simple account of how He created this realm in which we live.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Agreed and I don't understand where the "literal interpretation" challenge comes from - it's not like Genesis stands alone as a book in the Bible with it's own separate narrative and no connection to anywhere else in the Bible. In direct contrast to this notion, Jesus makes reference to the events and people in Genesis, it's also referenced by various OT and NT authors as narrative (not allegory or poetry)... so understanding Genesis as historical and factual is not an abstract decision by some - it's connected to many books found in God's word and there is no contradiction to it found anywhere in the Bible. Every opposition to it originates from outside God's word.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Thank you for these verses. Where does this paint the picture of a repetitive cycle of ruin/restoration that would span the billions of years that secular scientists assert as the history/age of the earth?

Job suggests a perfect creation in the very beginning.
Isaiah suggests that perfection continued until the rebellion.
Jude suggests a change in the angelic habitation.

Geology reveals a pattern of ruin/restoration going back perhaps billions of years, but doesn't credit a singular event that began the process, or caused it to repeat.

Genesis One begins (verse 2) with yet another restoration. The Deluge account records yet another cycle, thus establishing a pattern, and a reason for it.
 
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