Hypothetical: Creationism becomes standard in science classes

[Queller]

Have you never heard of eclipsing binaries?

Cool. When I was researching this for my own response, I came across some articles talking about how Alpha and Beta Centauri appear to get close but never cross. Thanks.

 

[Queller]

Current review article form responsible scientists. Enjoy: Can Prayer Heal?

I read through it. Not a single bit of evidence that prayer can heal.

 

[Queller]

And everyone knows this, so few have the money and time to do it in a way they believe will be satisfactory. And they feel this makes scientists elitist.

I guess that makes lawyers elitist? Doctors? Architects? Engineers?

No, science is biased because they do not listen to large numbers of people who are not publishing papers and have different ideas what constitute relevant facts, which ideas would not be considered "quality and merit"..

As I said earlier, I wouldn't listed to Mike the radiologist's opinion on how to build a home nor would I listen to Pat the architect's opinion on how my x-ray shows cancer.

 

[Queller]

It's still a theory, I agree. My objection since the beginning has been that many are saying it is a fact.

As I believe you have been told before, evolution is both a fact and a theory.

That animals change (evolve) over time is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution is the best evidenced, most well researched, explanation of why animals change over time.

 

[Queller]

That is exactly the point at issue. You were not there, you cannot be sure except by inference.

By that logic, if there are no witnesses, we can't be sure someone is guilty of murder except by inference. And yet murderers are convicted without eyewitnesses every single day.

BTW;

Inference; : something that is inferred; especially : a conclusion or opinion that is formed because of known facts or evidence

 

[Queller]

I am not a YEC. I am an "I don't know".

That's interesting because it appears that you reject any evidence that disagrees with a young earth and global flood.

i do not know of any positive falsification.

You know a a lot of them, you just don't accept them.

 

[Queller]

You can analyze the past as far back as your original evidence goes, plus a little bit. It is the distant past you cannot analyze.

The original evidence we have of say, a stegosaurus comes from 80 million years ago. So...

 

[Queller]

Also, I think dinosaurs were manufactured as part of ancient DNA experimentation.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And everyone knows this, so few have the money and time to do it in a way they believe will be satisfactory.

Well, yeah, science is hard work... It takes time, discipline and in some cases, yes, money (to setup experiments, research,...).

And they feel this makes scientists elitist.

huh? I'ld say it makes science a profession just like any other profession....
Most professions out there take study, time and money.

Is owning a business also "elitist"? Because you also need money, time, etc in order to be able to build something up that is profitable.

How about getting a degree in anything? Also elitist? That also takes time and money and hard work.

I have trouble seeing what it is exactly that you are complaining about...

No, science is biased because they do not listen to large numbers of people who are not publishing papers

Why would they need to?
And what is there to listen to, if there are no scientific works to listen to???

and have different ideas what constitute relevant facts, which ideas would not be considered "quality and merit"..

Such as?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, yeah, science is hard work... It takes time, discipline and in some cases, yes, money (to setup experiments, research,...).

Yes, indeed.

And what does the Good Book say?

Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Now you know why some people defend science like someone is breaking into their house to steal their treasures.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's not how a lot of people see it.

Then a lot of people are wrong.

But, considering your previous post, it doesn't seem to be the case that you think science is biased or "elitist" or whatever...

It rather seems as if you are complaining that science is hard work. Yes, the criteria for a scientific paper are harsh. The scrutiny you face in the community when publishing new ideas is kind of in proportion with how outlandish your ideas are.

There are people out there that have worked for MORE THEN 30 YEARS to get their hypothesis published and accepted as theory by the scientific community. They were right, for the most part, from day 1, but their work was not upto scientific standards. The evidence not conclusive enough. The experiments not clear enough.

They didn't complain about "elitism". Instead, they rolled up their sleeves and got to work. Hard. Very hard. And it took them decades.

There are no free rides in science and contrary to what you seem to think, having your paper published is not a right.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That is exactly the point at issue. You were not there, you cannot be sure except by inference.

You don't need to be present in past events to know that those past events occured.

That should be rather obvious.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree. We just disagree on which ones are the wrong ones. History shows people do not act on the right ideas, but on the ideas they believe.

Science is very results -based.

We know that relativity theory is pretty accurate, because GPS correctly locates our receivers anywhere on the planet.

We know that atomic theory is pretty accurate, because nuclear power stations deliver electricity and nukes explode.

If a scientific idea is wrong, it will not work.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am unfamiliar with the position. What does that entail?

"I don't know if a god exists, but I believe one does"

You are certainly within your rights to label your position however you want, but most people would consider not knowing if there is a God (agnosticism) and believing that God exists (theism) as contradictory.

Isn't that the whole idea of "religious faith", though?
It certainly is not a position you'll find among fundamentalists. Those people will not only all claim to know, they'll even claim certainty.

But it seems to me that the more "sophisticated"/"educated"/"reasonable" theists almost always will say that they don't claim to know. I certainly distinctly remember Ken Miller, for example, say exactly that. These people understand that "personal evidence" isn't usefull evidence to convince other people and that "knowledge" is something that you can share and demonstrate.

Danneels, a retired catholic cardinal in Belgium, literally said once "it's not knowledge like knowledge of gravity, it's faith".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, indeed.

And what does the Good Book say?

Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Now you know why some people defend science like someone is breaking into their house to steal their treasures.

 

[4x4toy]

"I don't know if a god exists, but I believe one does"



Isn't that the whole idea of "religious faith", though?
It certainly is not a position you'll find among fundamentalists. Those people will not only all claim to know, they'll even claim certainty.

But it seems to me that the more "sophisticated"/"educated"/"reasonable" theists almost always will say that they don't claim to know. I certainly distinctly remember Ken Miller, for example, say exactly that. These people understand that "personal evidence" isn't usefull evidence to convince other people and that "knowledge" is something that you can share and demonstrate.

Danneels, a retired catholic cardinal in Belgium, literally said once "it's not knowledge like knowledge of gravity, it's faith".

You hear testimony of what Jesus has did in someone's life . You either discount it , you ponder it or see some thing different with change . Some come to believe and some never will . It doesn't matter . What matters is you are presented with a free will choice . I've seen and experienced 1rst hand supernatural events . Testimonies are easy to find , they are also easy to ignore, disbelieve and blow off ..
Why would any Christian care what you believe , what is in it for them ? The only reason a true Christian cares is that once we are passed from dark to the light and then realize the consequences we were saved from we simply want you to have the same chance to come to know . Many Christians don't go on to seek the deeper things available , some do and have added to what they have received . Remember that I sat in the seat of mockers too just like every Christian ,and other person for that matter, has done to some degree or other before their salvation since Jesus began his ministry . How big is that ? You don't know for a reason ..

 

[Ken Behrens]

Based on what evidence? You seem to be making that up.

You can read my books at my website. Ancient documents with technology described that has been patented in our age, but we do not use. The flood is a product of technological mishap.

 

[Ken Behrens]

When you speed up to pass another car, you leave evidence behind that you did it. One example is increased emissions from the engine.

If light sped up or slowed down, it would leave evidence behind.

And those emissions are gone in a matter of a few minutes. You might as well argue that the horse manure on the roads proved that a wagon passed down this road 100 years ago, as to argue that we can use evidence from today to argue what happened a million years ago int he sky. The horse manure is gone, just like my emissions will be gone by tomorrow.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Can you give an example of one field in which it is claimed there is nothing left to do?

You think that 62% of Americans accepting that humans evolved over time is a small segment? Don't forget that acceptance of evolution is, on average, much higher around the world than it is in the US.

Elucidating the principles of gear ratios is completed. Actually, I don't think there has been a new discovery in Classical Mechanics in the last century, yet it works for whatever we care to use it for. https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-...thing-more-recent-than-Newtons-laws-of-motion

Americans are a very small percent of the world's population. Much of the third world has yet to embrace logic, let alone science.

And your statistic is qualified by the fact that "evolution" is of two types, macro and micro. Most Christians accept micro but many do not accept macro. Please read the whole article, where it qualifies these things, and the percentages drop dramatically when this is considered.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Can you give even one example of this happening? Specifically that someone said "I have a million dollars" and then having a million dollars appear in their bank account.

Not of it appearing overnight. But a perfect example is the pastor of a church I and my first wife helped with. In about ten years he went from a promise from God to a few million dollar buildings, and the banks soliciting him when they wanted new business. Home - Crossroad Christian Church His story is that God told him what could be done, and also told him the first two people God asked to do this said no. I actually know several more examples, but not as closely as I do this one.