Hypothetical Christian World

[Loudmouth]

This amounts to desiring divine intervention in every scenario where human suffering is even possible.

Instead, we live in a world where there is no divine intervention at all. In fact, the universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no divine.

 

[quilbilly]

And it would be even easier for men and women to abstain from having sex if they do not want children. No sexual intercourse, no children.

Problem solved.

So sex is only for procreation in your worldview? Married people shouldn't have sex except to make a baby? If you have two children and don't want any more you would be done with sex. For life? Really?

A lot of the worlds problems would be diminished if not eliminated if every child was a wanted child IMHO







EQUALity is for everyone

 

[quatona]

And it would be even easier for men and women to abstain from having sex if they do not want children. No sexual intercourse, no children.

Yes, I can do that (personally, I chose another route: I had myself vasectomized early). But there´s still the suffering of children that I haven´t made, and the suffering of which you tell me is my job.

Problem solved.

Assuming there´s a god and this god didn´t want the suffering of unwanted children, there would have been an even easier solution: God could have created people to be fertile only when they have the will to procreate. In all other cases sex wouldn´t lead to pregnancy. Problem solved. Not even any infringement on their "free will" involved, au contraire.

 

[Elioenai26]

Instead, we live in a world where there is no divine intervention at all. In fact, the universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no divine.

Bad logic and reasoning rears its ugly head again in your post.

Aside from the fact that you would have no possible way of knowing that there was no divine intervention in the world at all, I will move to ask you this simple question:

Where are you getting this idea about the way the world should be?

You say in so many words that the world is really screwed up, but how do you account for this view?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Of course I can. God is caring, merciful, etc.

Then you have a contradiction. God cannot be both caring, merciful, etc, and stand there with folded arms while humans suffering in agony. If God has decided not to help human suffering, then he is not caring or merciful.

Or maybe God's goals are to bring about a state of affairs that is only possible in a world where humans are free moral agents.

Except that earthquakes, tsunamis, and disease, aren't products of human agency. Nothing compelled God to put humans on the cracked shell of a cooling rock, yet he did so. Nothing compelled God to create humans with a psychology that would lead some to rape and murder, yet he did so.

God chose to create a world that would inflict suffering - earthquakes, tsunamis, diseases, etc. God chose to create human psychology, and could have made rape and murder utterly inconceivable - this would preserve human free will, yet also preclude rape and murder. Yet, he did not.

The free will, moral agency argument does not hold water.

You should worship Him only if you believe He is worthy of worship. Obviously you do not. So I do not expect you to. One cannot be forced to worship God anymore than one can be forced to love Him. You are free to reject Him. God loves you enough to let you have your freedom from Him, if that is what you desire.

One wonders if this 'freedom' comes with the usual gun-to-my-head - worship or go to Hell - that invalidates the whole notion of choice.

But this freedom has a cost. It is evidenced in the world of suffering and sin in which we now live. So if you want to be free from the Highest Good, then you want suffering, sin, wickedness, evil, corruption, decay, disease, rape, and everything that is contrary to God.

If God has decided to create natural laws such that not worshipping him creates suffering, sin, wickedness, etc, then that is his fault.

And how does human freedom create disease? How does it create earthquakes and tsunamis and drought?

Heaven or hell, righteousness or unrighteousness, self denial or selfishness, love or hate, charity or greed.

Each of us who are adults ultimately choose our destiny.

Nonsense. Of those who are raped or murdered, few have chosen this as their destiny.

 

[Elioenai26]

So sex is only for procreation in your worldview? Married people shouldn't have sex except to make a baby? If you have two children and don't want any more you would be done with sex. For life? Really?

A lot of the worlds problems would be diminished if not eliminated if every child was a wanted child IMHO







EQUALity is for everyone

Sexual intercourse is to take place between a man and a woman only within the confines of marriage. Sexual intercourse is one special way God has made for a man and a woman who love each other and who are married to express their love for one another. Children can come about from sexual intercourse, but sexual intercourse is not limited to having children. A married couple can have sexual intercourse for pleasure. If they do not want to have children, then appropriate measures should be taken to help prevent this.

If a married couple absolutely does not desire to have children, and they can abstain from sexual intercourse, they do well.

 

[Skavau]

Of course I can. God is caring, merciful, etc.

Well, you can say that but no-one will take you seriously.

Or maybe God's goals are to bring about a state of affairs that is only possible in a world where humans are free moral agents.

You can't be a free moral agent, or have the maximum capacity for moral agency if you are in danger of dying from starvation, disease, natural disaster or even local predators through no fault of your own. There are not just human evils that blight and cause suffering to humanity.

You should worship Him only if you believe He is worthy of worship. Obviously you do not. So I do not expect you to. One cannot be forced to worship God anymore than one can be forced to love Him. You are free to reject Him. God loves you enough to let you have your freedom from Him, if that is what you desire.

In the case of your God, that is what I desire.

But this freedom has a cost. It is evidenced in the world of suffering and sin in which we now live. So if you want to be free from the Highest Good, then you want suffering, sin, wickedness, evil, corruption, decay, disease, rape, and everything that is contrary to God.

No.

Do not presume to speak for people that are not you and have told you their position time and time again. A rejection of your God is that and that alone. That I reject your God does not mean I want suffering, evil, disease and rape (the other terms are so vague, loaded and generalised as to be useless).

Heaven or hell, righteousness or unrighteousness, self denial or selfishness, love or hate, charity or greed.

False choice. I do not believe such a choice exists, nor have any reason to believe it is confined to just two.

Also ignores the existence of non-Christian theists that do, in their mind elect heaven and choose "righteousness".

 

[Skavau]

And it would be even easier for men and women to abstain from having sex if they do not want children. No sexual intercourse, no children.

Problem solved.

Except the lack of sex, which is a natural desire.

We can have it both ways and we do. Tough luck your pointless, invasive and primitive religious dogma is not followed.

 

[Elioenai26]

Then you have a contradiction. God cannot be both caring, merciful, etc, and stand there with folded arms while humans suffering in agony. If God has decided not to help human suffering, then he is not caring or merciful.

Christ's arms were outstretched and fastened to a wooden crossbeam via nails through His wrists.

This is not a folded arms posture my friend.

Except that earthquakes, tsunamis, and disease, aren't products of human agency.

Of course they are.

Nothing compelled God to put humans on the cracked shell of a cooling rock, yet he did so.

The earth began to experience decay and travail AFTER humans began sinning and spurning God. Not before.

All that God created was Good, remember?

Nothing compelled God to create humans with a psychology that would lead some to rape and murder, yet he did so.

You are right, nothing or no one compelled God to create.

God chose to create a world that would inflict suffering - earthquakes, tsunamis, diseases, etc.

You are personifying the world and attributing to it powers it does not possess. The world does not "inflict suffering" on anyone.

God chose to create human psychology, and could have made rape and murder utterly inconceivable - this would preserve human free will, yet also preclude rape and murder. Yet, he did not.

Rape and murder are actions committed by human beings who choose to rape and murder. God cannot do a lot of things which I have already mentioned several times in my various posts. God cannot do anything logically impossible. It would be logically impossible to create a world of free moral agents and at the same time, have the world be free of the evil actions that humans may choose to commit.

The free will, moral agency argument does not hold water.

It is an explanation, not a water container.

One wonders if this 'freedom' comes with the usual gun-to-my-head - worship or go to Hell - that invalidates the whole notion of choice.

If you reject the Highest Good, you necessarily get what is not good i.e. life without God. That is what hell is, and everyone that is in hell is there because they reject God who is the Highest Good.

If God has decided to create natural laws such that not worshipping him creates suffering, sin, wickedness, etc, then that is his fault.

We live in a world where actions have consequences.

And how does human freedom create disease? How does it create earthquakes and tsunamis and drought?

The earth and we as humans, are constituents of a fallen universe where God's will Has been rejected and substituted by man's. Sin is like a cancerous tumor which maligns all that it comes into contact with. The world, and humans therein.

Nonsense. Of those who are raped or murdered, few have chosen this as their destiny.

Rape and murder are acts, not destinies.

God looks at a person's heart and can therein see what the true motives and intents are within. If a person is murdered while living a life pleasing to God, then their destiny is secured and they will be with God. If a person is murdered while living a godless, sinful life, then they will not be with God. Their destiny is also secured.

 

[Skavau]

Christ's arms were outstretched and fastened to a wooden crossbeam via nails through His wrists.

This is not a folded arms posture my friend.

Perhaps not.

All things consider though it was on some hindsight a broadly useless and ineffective gesture. Showmanship at its finest.

Of course they are.

No, they aren't.

The only argument I can imagine you're going for is a nonsensical insistence that original sin tainted the earth. If that is so that is not anyone's fault now. We should not be punished or handicapped for the actions of our ancestors.

The earth began to experience decay and travail AFTER humans began sinning and spurning God. Not before.

Of course, we forget that you think the earth popped into existence as a lush paradise thousands of years ago.

We also forget that you endorse collective guilt and ancestral sin.

Some virtues you propagate.

All that God created was Good, remember?

No.

Your cutesy questions also come across as patronising, not informative.

You are right, nothing or no one compelled God to create.

Yet he did so and he holds us accountable for the psyche that he created or allowed to infect us.

You are personifying the world and attributing to it powers it does not possess. The world does not "inflict suffering" on anyone.

If God is in command, yes it does. Be it through neglect or through deliberate sabotage the natural world is without the modern comforts we enjoy today a profoundly dangerous place. Our ancestors died in huge numbers to now easily preventable illness, infection, famine, predator attacks and natural disasters. This not withstanding the smaller lifespans they had and the ignorance of the world they had.

You speak so much and so often from an ivory tower of William Lane's Craig construction and it shows.

If you reject the Highest Good, you necessarily get what is not good i.e. life without God. That is what hell is, and everyone that is in hell is there because they reject God who is the Highest Good.

Muslims do not reject the "Highest Good". They may err in what they believe the "Highest Good" to be but they do not reject it. This assertion is nothing more than a strawman.

We live in a world where actions have consequences.

Of God's making. That God has instituted absurd consequences for non-harmful and trivial actions does not justify the consequences. This would be like saying to a political prisoner of a totalitarian state that he knew the consequences of blogging about human rights abuses and because he did he deserves whatever punishment the state decides to inflict on him.

The earth and we as humans, are constituents of a fallen universe where God's will Has been rejected and substituted by man's. Sin is like a cancerous tumor which maligns all that it comes into contact with. The world, and humans therein.

So how is anyone in this specific generation responsible for the original imposition of sin in the world? Why does God allow people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the original corruption of the Earth to be born into a life of short-lived yet extremely painful suffering and despair?

Rape and murder are acts, not destinies.

Yet according to you it is the destiny of those subjected to it to suffer it, their will regardless.

God looks at a person's heart and can therein see what the true motives and intents are within. If a person is murdered while living a life pleasing to God, then their destiny is secured and they will be with God. If a person is murdered while living a godless, sinful life, then they will not be with God. Their destiny is also secured.

Indeed.

Their destiny "secured" on behalf of them, regardless of their will or conviction or choice and decided based on the absurd proposition that it matters that you believe in God.

 

[Skavau]

Sexual intercourse is to take place between a man and a woman only within the confines of marriage.

So says you. Perhaps so says God.

Wholly unjustified regardless. Sex outside of marriage and with the same sex is not yours nor God's business and is an act born of consent and has generally speaking no harm from it.

Sexual intercourse is one special way God has made for a man and a woman who love each other and who are married to express their love for one another.

So what?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Christ's arms were outstretched and fastened to a wooden crossbeam via nails through His wrists.

This is not a folded arms posture my friend.

And yet, he does nothing while children are raped. That is a folded posture.

Of course they are.

OK, I'll bite. What human action triggered the Fukoshima earthquake of 2012?

The earth began to experience decay and travail AFTER humans began sinning and spurning God. Not before.

All that God created was Good, remember?

Allegedly. But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is true. God created the world, which means he was the one who decided to create a physical law that says "If humans eat of this fruit, then the earth will begin to experience decay".

You are right, nothing or no one compelled God to create.

Nor to create in the precise fashion that he did.

You are personifying the world and attributing to it powers it does not possess. The world does not "inflict suffering" on anyone.

You are quibbling semantics (and didn't you yourself use the phrase "The earth began to experience decay"?). Natural processes, unguided and uncaused by any intelligence, result in human suffering.

Rape and murder are actions committed by human beings who choose to rape and murder. God cannot do a lot of things which I have already mentioned several times in my various posts. God cannot do anything logically impossible. It would be logically impossible to create a world of free moral agents and at the same time, have the world be free of the evil actions that humans may choose to commit.

On the contrary, I've already outlined several ways in which this could be accomplished - nullify the negative consequences of choice, and you preserve free will. Choose to commit is not the same as accomplish.

It is an explanation, not a water container.

And it doesn't work.

If you reject the Highest Good, you necessarily get what is not good i.e. life without God. That is what hell is, and everyone that is in hell is there because they reject God who is the Highest Good.

Ah, so God, being omnipotent, had no choice but to create a place of fire and brimstone where the non-believer will burn forever and ever.

We live in a world where actions have consequences.

Yes, and the consequences are God's to design. He decided that eating forbidden fruit would bring suffering into the world. If only he had decided it would just give Eve a bad case of wind instead.

The earth and we as humans, are constituents of a fallen universe where God's will Has been rejected and substituted by man's. Sin is like a cancerous tumor which maligns all that it comes into contact with. The world, and humans therein.

Which would be lovely if it actually worked like that. A human deciding to disobey God is a mental choice that manifests only as far as his actions allow - the human is of very limited means, after all. No choice or action the human can do will make roses grow thorns, nor spontaneously create HIV. No choice or action could possibly crack the Earth's crust and thereby create earthquakes, volcanoes, and tsunamis.

Humans do not have that ability. If human choice did lead to it, then it is because God designed it to react that way. God, not humans, decided to make the world so fragile that human disobedience would corrupt the entire universe. God, not humans, decided that things like leprosy and earthquakes would be the result of human disobedience.

So once again, the fault falls onto God for creating such a precarious universe. You'd think, being omniscient, he'd have foresight to mitigate the actions of two humans. You'd think that Eve's eating of the fruit wouldn't condemn the entire universe to suffering.

Rape and murder are acts, not destinies.

God looks at a person's heart and can therein see what the true motives and intents are within. If a person is murdered while living a life pleasing to God, then their destiny is secured and they will be with God. If a person is murdered while living a godless, sinful life, then they will not be with God. Their destiny is also secured.

And this destiny is arbitrarily either paradise or eternal suffering. You sure do enjoy tying God's hands.

 

[quilbilly]

God created Adam and Eve with free will knowing what would happen
He left them in Eden and told them have fun but don't touch that tree
Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong and used their free will
Because of that children starve to death. People die from storms earthquakes floods etc
And none of that is Gods doing.
Do I have this right?








EQUALity is for everyone

 

[Elioenai26]

God created Adam and Eve with free will knowing what would happen
He left them in Eden and told them have fun but don't touch that tree
Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong and used their free will
Because of that children starve to death. People die from storms earthquakes floods etc
And none of that is Gods doing.
Do I have this right?








EQUALity is for everyone

Part of it is correct.

 

[Davian]

Christ's arms were outstretched and fastened to a wooden crossbeam via nails through His wrists.

This is not a folded arms posture my friend.




Of course they are.



The earth began to experience decay and travail AFTER humans began sinning and spurning God. Not before.

All that God created was Good, remember?



You are right, nothing or no one compelled God to create.



You are personifying the world and attributing to it powers it does not possess. The world does not "inflict suffering" on anyone.



Rape and murder are actions committed by human beings who choose to rape and murder. God cannot do a lot of things which I have already mentioned several times in my various posts. God cannot do anything logically impossible. It would be logically impossible to create a world of free moral agents and at the same time, have the world be free of the evil actions that humans may choose to commit.



It is an explanation, not a water container.




If you reject the Highest Good, you necessarily get what is not good i.e. life without God. That is what hell is, and everyone that is in hell is there because they reject God who is the Highest Good.




We live in a world where actions have consequences.



The earth and we as humans, are constituents of a fallen universe where God's will Has been rejected and substituted by man's. Sin is like a cancerous tumor which maligns all that it comes into contact with. The world, and humans therein.



Rape and murder are acts, not destinies.

God looks at a person's heart and can therein see what the true motives and intents are within. If a person is murdered while living a life pleasing to God, then their destiny is secured and they will be with God. If a person is murdered while living a godless, sinful life, then they will not be with God. Their destiny is also secured.

So you can determine who gets into this heaven of yours, can you?

What of a mother and child that die in childbirth?

 

[quilbilly]

Part of it is correct.

Don't be shy now. Which part is not correct ?













EQUALity is for everyone

 

[JGG]

Okay, so suffice it to say: even though you deserve hell, there is a reasonable chance you will never see it. Is that a fair interpretation of what you've described?

I'm guessing that I'm not going to receive a response to this, so I'm going to go ahead and assume it's a fair interpretation.

Is that justice? Are these the actions of a God of Justice?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

God created Adam and Eve with free will knowing what would happen
He left them in Eden and told them have fun but don't touch that tree
Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong and used their free will
Because of that children starve to death. People die from storms earthquakes floods etc
And none of that is Gods doing.
Do I have this right?

Part of it is correct.

Don't be shy now. Which part is not correct ?

The suspense is killing me!

 

[Spiritlight]

Looking from the perspective of someone who has created little physical things but never a life form how could I dare use my understanding to try to piece together how things should be?

What about if a world that included rebellious humans and physical suffering was the best God could do and in itself was a tremendous feat.

Who knows what god could or could not create?.. we assume everything and anything different to what is but what if it it is not so?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Looking from the perspective of someone who has created little physical things but never a life form how could I dare use my understanding to try to piece together how things should be?

What about if a world that included rebellious humans and physical suffering was the best God could do and in itself was a tremendous feat.

Who knows what god could or could not create?.. we assume everything and anything different to what is but what if it it is not so?

Theists traditionally ascribe omnipotence to God. This allows to make certain assumptions. For instance, if God is omnipotence, then it necessarily follows that he could make a world without suffering and still accomplish his goals, unless his goal was to make humans suffer.