my point is, it is hypocritical. JUST to get members into the denomination? *sigh....whatever.
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Hypocrisy???
- Thread starter HisBelovedMelody
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Peaceful Dove
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Hey Church,
I will try to give you the information I know about this situation. I know a little because my son, who was also married 3 times has also gone through the annulment process as did my girlfriend. She went through 5 marriage in all and after her second, marriage, the Priest would not consider her appeal again. She was not and at the age of 70, still incapable of making a firm committment.
This is really going to be hard to explain since so much has been said already and feelings are running high. I can see there has been some real hurt.
I am also not really good with words and pray, I do not make the situation worse.
In the Catholic Church, marriage is a Sacrament, one of the 7 Sacraments.
Each Sacrament requires certain things to be present, to make that Sacrament valid WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Only the Catholic Church can determine what makes a Catholic Sacrament valid. Do you agree with me so far? We must respect the authority the Lord put over us. Surely, not every Christian agrees with this and these rules are not put over every Christian, just Catholics. This is not to say that every Christian is not part of the Body of Christ but how can everyone be bound by Catholic rules?
So... Jesus said in scripture, "whosoever puts away his wife and marries another, except for immorality, commits adultery..."
For many years, annulment was not used in the Church. However, over recent years, there has been less and less commitment to the Sacrament of Marriage. If these marriages were indeed made in Heaven and were truly Sacramental, they should indeed, last.
The Catholic Church determined that all of the elements required to make a for life, Sacramental marriage must be missing. A very detailed investigation is made, letters are written to former inlaws, friends and of course the former spouse asking specific questions. For an annulment to be eventually granted, these folks have to be willing to answer the questions and cooperate with the Marriage Tribunal. If not the annulment is almost always denied.
There is much more that I am not aware of. I can tell you this, scripture is involved and much prayer as well as Spiritual discernment. I realize that from the outside looking in, it doesn't seem like it but since it was my son involved and I was one of the witnesses and had to testify by answering these questions ...and...I was Maid of Honor at my best friends wedding, and we lived next door to each other, and I was God Mother to her children, I know what happened with her.
The other thing I do need to mention here. This only affects the Catholic Sacramental part of the marriage. The Church recognizes that the marriage is legal in civil law and a civil divorce is necessary to end that so that any children involved are indeed ligitimate.
That is the best I can do. I know it is not a great explanation but it is the best I can do.
Peace of Jesus Be With You
I will try to give you the information I know about this situation. I know a little because my son, who was also married 3 times has also gone through the annulment process as did my girlfriend. She went through 5 marriage in all and after her second, marriage, the Priest would not consider her appeal again. She was not and at the age of 70, still incapable of making a firm committment.
This is really going to be hard to explain since so much has been said already and feelings are running high. I can see there has been some real hurt.
I am also not really good with words and pray, I do not make the situation worse.
In the Catholic Church, marriage is a Sacrament, one of the 7 Sacraments.
Each Sacrament requires certain things to be present, to make that Sacrament valid WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Only the Catholic Church can determine what makes a Catholic Sacrament valid. Do you agree with me so far? We must respect the authority the Lord put over us. Surely, not every Christian agrees with this and these rules are not put over every Christian, just Catholics. This is not to say that every Christian is not part of the Body of Christ but how can everyone be bound by Catholic rules?
So... Jesus said in scripture, "whosoever puts away his wife and marries another, except for immorality, commits adultery..."
For many years, annulment was not used in the Church. However, over recent years, there has been less and less commitment to the Sacrament of Marriage. If these marriages were indeed made in Heaven and were truly Sacramental, they should indeed, last.
The Catholic Church determined that all of the elements required to make a for life, Sacramental marriage must be missing. A very detailed investigation is made, letters are written to former inlaws, friends and of course the former spouse asking specific questions. For an annulment to be eventually granted, these folks have to be willing to answer the questions and cooperate with the Marriage Tribunal. If not the annulment is almost always denied.
There is much more that I am not aware of. I can tell you this, scripture is involved and much prayer as well as Spiritual discernment. I realize that from the outside looking in, it doesn't seem like it but since it was my son involved and I was one of the witnesses and had to testify by answering these questions ...and...I was Maid of Honor at my best friends wedding, and we lived next door to each other, and I was God Mother to her children, I know what happened with her.
The other thing I do need to mention here. This only affects the Catholic Sacramental part of the marriage. The Church recognizes that the marriage is legal in civil law and a civil divorce is necessary to end that so that any children involved are indeed ligitimate.
That is the best I can do. I know it is not a great explanation but it is the best I can do.
Peace of Jesus Be With You
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yes. GOD can forgive. THAT is not my point. My point is...to add members to said denomination, lets just look the other way on these issues. Ya know what? I got me a feelin' nothing is ever going to come of this, cause everyone is overlooking the simple facts.
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I just don't understand, how the church can just do this. Who gave them the right? I dunno. There is so much I don't get...and it hurts knowing my mother is in this denomination, and she willingly knew and did what she did too. She is to blame too.
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I should hope to God that that wasn't 'special' treatment. In GOD'S eyes, ALL the marriages were real and happened.I don't care what that denomination says....600$ please and thank you. Incredible.
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L3g3nd
Well-Known Member
Let me quote for you a paragraph on the nature of a degree of nullity:
"What a decree of Nullity Is. An annulment, properly called a Decree of Nullity, is a finding by a Church tribunal that ON THE DAY VOWS WERE EXCHANGED at least some essential element for a valid marriage was lacking, such as, one of the parties did not intend lifelong fidelity to the other person or excluded children entirely. Another example would be that one of the parties was incapable of marriage (due to some constitutional weakness, such as mental illness or some psychological condition that prevented making the marital commitment - gross immaturity, homosexuality, etc.).
None of these conditions are assumed they must be proven. A Decree of Nullity does NOT dissolve the marriage, it cannot. It is a reasoned judgement that one never existed, and as such is capable of human error. If the tribunal is fastidious to Church law and theology and the couple and their witnesses are honest, the decision can be followed in good-faith, including a new marriage. If someone is ABUSING the process through deceit, however, it would be a very grave sin for that person. A person who innocently enters a second marriage would not be guilty of sin, but the person who abused the process to fraudulently obtain a decree in order to remarry would commit adultery by remarrying." (http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/annulment.htm)
Such is the nature of the decree, and if your mother is abusing the system, her sins will be on her head.
As for the money, the church employs people to look into the case, and that costs money; why should anyone but your mother be responsible for the cost?
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WHY annul a marriage just cause some pope said 'in this denomination we don't recognize it'!!!! I am sorry, but it is WRONG..and I don't CARE what the denomination says.
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L3g3nd
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Marriage must be official, don't you agree? Two people can't just look at each other and declare themselves officially married. Therefore, the church, being in the business of marrying people, has guidelines for what constitutes an actual marriage. If you disagree, that's fine, but the church is not being hypocritical, as you said.
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BUDDY! Just cause the first three weren't IN THE CATHOLIC denomination doesn't make them unofficial. GIVE me a break. That is just nonsense.
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>> the church, being in the business of marrying people
That is a very ...er ... cmon
seriously
That is a very ...er ... cmon
seriously
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well, I don't know about the first, I wasn't there! LOL..OH for the record for the catholics..she had sex and was pregnant before she got married...the second, not sure either..the third was outside by a baptist minister...so gee..maybe they didn't count! MY point being the catholic church took money for the annulment of first said marriage that produced TWO kids, seems to by hypocritical to me. They were consumated...obviously...but that denomination comes along and assumes it is better and the ONLY "church" to...get saved,...married in etc??? YEAH, ok...whatever.>> the church, being in the business of marrying people
That is a very ...er ... cmon
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L3g3nd
Well-Known Member
There's nothing hypocritical about the Catholic church following Catholic protocol. For there to be hypocrisy, the church must have done something that it is in principal against. This was not the case.
You don't have to believe it, but that is church policy. I'm not even arguing here whether or not the policy is a valid one; all I'm saying is that the church did not act hypocritically in its decision regarding Judahspraise's mother.
pehkay said:That is a very ...er ... cmon
You don't have to believe it, but that is church policy. I'm not even arguing here whether or not the policy is a valid one; all I'm saying is that the church did not act hypocritically in its decision regarding Judahspraise's mother.
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you call it what you want. I call it a grave sin on the churches part. HOW dare that denomination call any marriage outside their institution invalid? There are ALOT of invalid marriages then if that is the case. I was married in a non denom. church....am I NOT married cause it wasn't in the catholic denomination?? DON'T hardly think so.
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L3g3nd
Well-Known Member
Why are you so hostile? You accused the church of hypocrisy, I explained that it is not. I explained to you precisely how the church "dares" to annul marriages (the church does not, by the way, declare all other marriages null and void; this is a step taken when a person like your mother comes to the church specifically for that purpose). There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to jump at anyone who tries to answer the questions you have posed.
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UNOFFICAL?.... they were most certainly official
In the eyes of the church, NOT THE STATE The first 3 were offical.... just not sacramental
Even protestant churches do not recognise marriage in their establishments as sacramental.
Not invalid, just not sacramental.
of course your "married" just not sacramentally....even the minsters who "married" you will agree.
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that was alot of fluff and nonsense. what makes a marriage "sacramental"...the Catholic denomination??? GIVE me a break. IF by sacrament you mean communion...yep, had that at my marriage too. HATE to disappoint you..but MY marriage is very sacramental to me.
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No not the catholic church.... God.
Holy Communion is a sacrament but I do not mean sacrament is a communion or Holy communion in any way makes marriage a sacrament.
A sacrament is a Christian rite that mediates divine gracea holy Mystery. The root meaning of the Latin word sacramentum is "making sacred".
One example of its use was as the term for the oath of dedication taken by Roman soldiers; but the ecclesiastical use of the word is derived from the root meaning of the word and not from that particular example.
Among many Protestants, the word mediates or conveys would mean only that it is a visible symbol or reminder of invisible grace.
The Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Christians, the Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Christians, members of the Anglican, United Methodist, and Old Catholic traditions, the Independent Catholic Churches and Lutherans hold that sacraments are not mere symbols, but rather, "signs or symbols which effect what they signify", that is, the sacraments in and of themselves, rightly administered, are used by God as a means to communicate grace to faithful recipients.
I hate to dissapoint but in most protestant churches their are only 2 sacraments.
1. Baptism
2. Holy communion
3. Reconcilliation (lutherian)
In the RCC, EO ect their are 7.
1. Baptism
2. Reconciliation
3. Holy Communion (eucharist)
4. Confirmation
5. Marriage
6. Holy Orders
7. Annointing of the sick and dying
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