Hypersexuality

[Beautiful Fireball]

Correct. It picked up the definition sometime after the Bible was translated into English.



That's why, in my opinion, certain English translations such as the NIV, changed it from "fornication" to "sexual immorality" - because the latter is a more accurate translation of "porneia". Sexual immorality, like porneia, is more of a 'catch-all' term. That said, languages aren't perfect, and translations aren't perfect and are often met with language barriers, English translations especially. Take for example, when Jesus asks Peter 3 times if he loves Him, in John 21:15-17. In English, we see the word "love" used. But going back to the Greek, the verses take on an entirely new meaning.

John Chapter 21, Verses 15 to 17: “So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonah, AGAPE thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I PHILEO thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonah, AGAPE thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I PHILEOthee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonah, PHILEO thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, PHILEO thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I PHILEO thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.”

With regards to rewording the Bible without noting the original meaning, it has happened - remember that for thousands of years, the church controlled society, and oftentimes had an agenda that wasn't necessarily all benevolent. I'll use another example:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities

In Hebrew, it read like so:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was BOUND for our transgressions. He was BOUND for our iniquities

But the change was made thousands of years later, to put it in line with how Jesus died.




That misses the point of the parable. Marriage was definitely a huge cultural deal even then, but it still doesn't say anything about premarital sex, and the parable was used to explain the narrowness of the road to heaven, as well as the persecution and difficulties that would be endured by Christ's servants and disciples.



You might think it's "amazing", but it really is worth it to study, question and discern. Does God not welcome questions? Is God afraid of having to give an answer rather than be blindly followed? The ban on all premarital sex is a long-standing church and cultural belief, so much so that the nonexistence of the ban in the Bible is obviously very tough to swallow, which explains knee-jerk reactions at the counterpoints on this topic, but it is what it is. Like I said, the Bible doesn't touch on general premarital sex, so there is no scripture for or against it. There's also no scripture on smoking cigarettes, voting Democrat, owning guns, or paying higher taxes either (not counting Matthew 22:21), but that doesn't make any of those necessarily right or wrong.



That would appear to be the case, yes.

Good job

 

[medicSTi]

I received this from tessas212:

Learn to listen to others - evidence and verses have already been provided to counter your arguement. Don't insult others

I have looked from page 1 to 5 fail to see evidence offered by her. All I see is what she believes without evidence in her posts. That said...

I have noted and thanked Imperial for his use of scripture, have I not? I appreciate his insight and knowledge and let him know. We are debating and doing so civilly are we not?

This little message bothers me because again, she is making claims without evidence... I am doing my best to not insult others, but if offering God's word to demonstrate my point is insulting... I am sorry, but that doesn't make much sense.

Have I not listened to what others like Imperial have said and continued the discussion while presenting scripture? Are you punishing me for not conforming to your belief which you have failed to substantiate with evidence in this thread? All I asked for was evidence. I am truly interested in seeing why you believe the way you do. If that insults you... I'm sorry it insults you, but asking for evidence to support your idea should not be insulting to you.

I am truly sorry if I have made you feel this way. But all I ask is that if you are going to make claims against what I believe to be God's word backed by scripture that I can present OR against me that you have evidence instead of calling me things you can not prove.

-Steven

 

[ImperialPhantom]

That is interesting. I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. So how do you decide which you believe without knowing the original language of the scriptures?

Which what I believe?

The reason I was quoting the parable was to note an acceptable recognition of marriage, not pre-marital anything. Simply noting that Jesus wasn't in a bedroom watching a couple "get married" by having sex.

I'm not the one who made the argument that sex = marriage.

It really is worthy of study. If there are those out there following God who believe that premarital sex is not a sin or spoken about in the Bible, I want to know what they're thinking and where their evidence is. It truly saddens me.

It comes off as condescending when you say things like this, which IMO explains Tessa's message to you. Maybe you weren't trying to condescend, but it looks like it here. As well, I've been attempting to explain both my thinking and my evidence. Or are you replying to multiple people at once?

Of course we can all ask God to help us understand the Bible and His will. Do you truly feel that the Holy Spirit and God have led you to believe that God has no position on the issue of premarital sex?

Yes. Both my wife and I feel that way.

Do you believe that if someone went to Jesus during his ministry and asked, "Teacher, is it righteous to have sex with my girlfriend?" Jesus would have answered nothing, yes, or no? If you believe his answer would be nothing or that it would be yes it is okay, what aspect of God's character leads you to this conclusion?

I'm not going to speak for God here, because taking the Lord's name in vain is breaking a commandment, and I can't claim to know what the Lord would say to something like that when He hasn't told me or written it.

...and not prostitute yourselves by going after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes...

Yeah. You can't use the argument of "This says A, so this must mean B", though. That's based on nothing but your opinion. There are numerous Bible stories regarding what lust for a woman can do for a man. David and Bathsheba, Samson and Delilah, for example. Two men whose lust for women have led to VERY bad places in their lives.

I see that much differently, these pieces of scripture above are very specific. I respectfully think that your argument has no basis. The Bible does contain scripture with reference and regards to sexual immorality including premarital sex. "Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes" ... does that mean that because it was not written, "Do not lust in your actions by having sex" that it is not implied? Does it say, go ahead and have sex with a woman, just don't look at her and think lustfully???

See above.

Job made a covenant with his eyes because he knew that looking at someone lustfully was the same as committing adultery with them in God's eyes. Job knew that one could commit adultery with the lustful thoughts one can think in his heart alone. He was not asking about lustfully thinking about his wife, but other women. Does that mean that only married men commit sin by thinking lustfully of women? And if one can commit sin with their eyes, is the act of sex omitted from committing "adultery"?



What is adultery?



So looking at a women lustfully is committing adultery. And is adultery not an act of sexual immorality? Is it not God's will that you should avoid sexual immorality? Is sexual immorality not a sin?

So looking lustfully and surely acting out those thoughts (sex) is adultery. Therefore premarital sex is clearly adultery and of course a sin.

Back to the Greek again. The word for adultery is "MOICHEIA", which means sex between a married woman and a man who is not her husband. So if you sleep with someone's wife, you're committing MOICHEIA, but if you sleep with a single chick or your girlfriend, then it doesn't fall under the umbrella of MOICHEIA/adultery. To say it does, is adding your own definition to the word for your own purposes, not following the Bible as it was written.

As for how it relates to single women: think about how young an age women got married back then, as well as the arrangement of marriages. There weren't exactly an abundance of single women living alone back then. A woman was married, and married young. That was that.

Is not God eternal? Is God not yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Does God not know exactly how your life is written and whom you will or will not married? Therefore in God's eyes do you not have a wife if he knows your future and in it you are married?

If that were the case, does not God see you as married from the moment he creates you? Does that not mean that if you have sex with someone that is not your wife, when in His eyes you have a wife, you have not committed adultery? For example, a single man/woman having sex with someone prior to being in a marriage??? Is that not addressing premarital sex?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[medicSTi]

Alright, I agree with your point about the introductory line being condiscending. As well as the fact that I have judged, which makes me feel sick to my stomach. I'm not here to rob people of their beliefs. I want to understand them and where they are coming from.

I know that we can relate together and my communication hasn't helped. I have been pushing with an "I'm right" attitutude as well as an "I can back it up!" attitude. That is not Christian.

Jesus taught compassionately, not like a bully. The disciples confronted beliefs they believed went against God and provided scripture and God's Word to those non-believers, even at times being blunt and harsh. So I am trying to learn how to teach and show others why I believe as I do. Obviously the way I am doing it has not been effective so far and I appologize.

My intent was to show those what I have been shown, but we are all at different places in our walk to Christ. I am very new and dealing with my own sins and bad habbits. However, I feel that I am called to provided those with what I have been provided for the basis of my beliefs and that they can pray about what they see and come to their conclusion with God. I just don't know how to go about it. I am praying for help in understanding how to do this. Please pray for me as well.

It is not my job to judge them and I believe I judged everyone on this forum before my first post. I believed that everyone on this forum believed what I believe to be core Christian principals and it was shocking to me when I was proven wrong right a way by so many.

It is clear to me now that none of us understand the entire Bible and what we can do is teach each other and help one another without an agenda or motive (including for the sake of being right). Your beliefs are between you and God. I just feel that it is every Christians' calling to teach God's Word and to provide scripture, compassion, and understanding. I don't feel that I provided anything but scripture, and I appologize.

I hope that you can all understand and that you will pray for me to better understand and for insight on how to convey my beliefs to others. I am truly sorry and look forward to learning more about God with each of you.

-Steven

*p.s.* I do stand by what I presented as my beliefs and feel the scripture supports it, but recognize that how I went about it was wrong.

 

[SiyoNqoba]

MedicSTi, I don't think you should feel too bad. I find the best way to gain insight into stuff like this is to discuss it. Yes, some times those discussions get out of hand, but I'm sure if this was discussed in person, you would be the type of person to stay calm and kind. I didn't read anything you said as particularly insulting - remember that you can't hear tone on the internet, so it depends how the person reading it is feeling.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

No problem. Even though we disagreed on beliefs, I'll defend your every right to have those beliefs and stand up for them.

 

[waxlion10]

I read every post in this thread, and I appreciate all the points that were addressed. It has helped me immensely; thanks to everyone who contributed Scripture, understanding of Greek, personal stories, etc.

 

[medicSTi]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your understanding.

 

[LaMandaRaye]

its definitely possible

Yeah, it's possible if neither of them have a job, a hobby, aspirations or any other responsibilities in life. Perhaps if they got a career, and found other things to do besides have sex all day it would solve their problem. Most people have to work, go to school, and so many things to take care of that makes having sex 6 times a day everyday impossible.

I think it's too late for them to stop, since they already have done it so many times they might as well just keep going until they're married.

 

[medicSTi]

It's never to late to stop sinning. God is forgiving and God is good.