Hymn writers won't change lyric for Presbyterians

[hedrick]

Hi Oz,

I have to agree with them. I find that line unbiblical. If Christ paid the price to God for sins why do men die? Both believers and unbelivers die. Paul said the wages of sin death, men die. another problem with Penal atonement is that it leaves no romm for forgiveness. If sins are paid for they are not forgiven. The Scriptures say that God is just. Is it just to punish one for the sins of another? I find the Penal model of the atonement so wrought with errors that I can't beleive the Reformers even tried to pass it off. It's simply not logical.

I don't think the Refomers are to blame here. I don't know Luther very well, so I'll speak of Calvin. He's often consider the inventor of penal satisfaction.

Calvin certainly said that Jesus took the punishment we deserve. That's a pretty common view of the atonement. There are Biblical texts that are commonly understood as saying that. I'm less sure he said that the purpose of this was to appease God's wrath. Indeed I don't think he gave any one explanation for why Jesus' death abolishes our sin. Many scholars think he used a variety of Biblical images for that, and I agree. In fact at one point he said that when the Bible spoke of God's wrath against us it was speaking non-literally, though I'm not sure that he maintained that position consistently. What he said most clearly was that God loved us so much and hated our sin so much that he was committed to dealing with our sin.

People quote from him very selectively.

I don't totally agree with Calvin in even going that far. I don't have time now to give my own position. But I don't think he differed from Christians throughout the centuries.

 

[Butch5]

I don't think the Refomers are to blame here. I don't know Luther very well, so I'll speak of Calvin. He's often consider the inventor of penal satisfaction.

Calvin certainly said that Jesus took the punishment we deserve. That's a pretty common view of the atonement. There are Biblical texts that are commonly understood as saying that. I'm less sure he said that the purpose of this was to appease God's wrath. Indeed I don't think he gave any one explanation for why Jesus' death abolishes our sin. Many scholars think he used a variety of Biblical images for that, and I agree. In fact at one point he said that when the Bible spoke of God's wrath against us it was speaking non-literally, though I'm not sure that he maintained that position consistently. What he said most clearly was that God loved us so much and hated our sin so much that he was committed to dealing with our sin.

People quote from him very selectively.

I don't totally agree with Calvin in even going that far. I don't have time now to give my own position. But I don't think he differed from Christians throughout the centuries.

Hi Hedrick,

That's one reason I didn't specifiy but used the generic term Reformers. My understanding is that they took Anselm's Satifaction model of the atonement that was being taught in the Catholic Church and tweeked it into what became Penal atonement. Besides the fact that the Satisfaction model didn't come into existence until 1000 years after Christ the Penal model is simply wrought with error fallacies. Payment and forgiveness of the same debt are mutally exclusive. Some definitions of forgiveness state outright that there is no payment of the debt. It also goes against the Character of God. To punish an innocent one for the guilty? As I said it leaves no room for forgiveness either. The Scriptures are repleat with God sayin He would forgive sins yet the Penal model says they are paid for. Another problem with the Penal model is that the wages of sin is death. If Christ paid that why do believers die? If one was to claim Paul was speaking of eternal death then the deabt wasn't paid because Jesus did not die eternally. I just don't see how the idea can be reconciled with the Scriptures.

I do believe Jesus died as a substitute and for our sin. However, I don't believe that was a payment to God or to appease His wrath against man. I believe He gave Himself as a ransom to redeem mankind back from Satan. giving His life for ours. In doing so He undid what Adam had done. Adam, because of his sin fell under the control of Satan, it is he who had the power of death. Christ by giving His life paid the price to redeem mankind.

 

[Cjwinnit]

In fact I was born and raised in the ECUSA and left it for the same reasons many, many years ago. All these denominations are trying to recreate a god in their own image. Clearly they do not take the scriptures seriously or they would never remove a song that acknowledges the wrath of God from their hymnal.

Sorry to hear that you left - hope you've found somewhere to worship God