Hydoxychlorquinine does not appear to be an answer:

[keith99]

One person's anecdote, not corroborated by a medical professional, is not evidence though.

From the article:
"State Rep. Karen Whitsett, who learned Monday she has tested positive for COVID-19, said she started taking hydroxychloroquine on March 31, prescribed by her doctor, after both she and her husband sought treatment for a range of symptoms on March 18.

"It was less than two hours" before she started to feel relief[/b], said Whitsett, who had experienced shortness of breath, swollen lymph nodes, and what felt like a sinus infection. She is still experiencing headaches, she said."

She states she already had symptoms for two weeks prior to starting hydroxychloroquine. Her timing with the drug and her recovery may also be coincidental but we only have her word that her relief was sudden and in conjunction with taking the drug.[/B]

Bolding mine.

This is exactly teh sort of thing that leads me to think of a case of Placebo effect.

My dad was a dentist and he was introduced me to a classic example. People who believed the mercury in old style silver fillings was causing all sorts of problems reported IMMEDIATE relief when they had the fillings replaced. The problem is that if they were right they should have felt far worse for a while because the removal process would have exposed them to far more mercury.

 

[HannahT]

One person's anecdote, not corroborated by a medical professional, is not evidence though.

From the article:
"State Rep. Karen Whitsett, who learned Monday she has tested positive for COVID-19, said she started taking hydroxychloroquine on March 31, prescribed by her doctor, after both she and her husband sought treatment for a range of symptoms on March 18.

"It was less than two hours" before she started to feel relief, said Whitsett, who had experienced shortness of breath, swollen lymph nodes, and what felt like a sinus infection. She is still experiencing headaches, she said."

She states she already had symptoms for two weeks prior to starting hydroxychloroquine. Her timing with the drug and her recovery may also be coincidental but we only have her word that her relief was sudden and in conjunction with taking the drug.

We have a number of stories, and NOT just one from a Democrat in Michigan. I can't remember his name but he was a character from the show 'Lost', and he also got the same drug after he was sick. He lives in HI, and was the Asian character. He also touts it, but no one endorses it for everyone. The reason people bring up people like this? They are well known, and it helps. People will take it more seriously than reporting on Farmer Joe from some town with 300 people. lol think about it!

I think we need to look at many different approaches personally. If a combo with the Z pack works for some? This is a good thing. We don't have one approach to many different stages of diseases, and waiting years for studies to be done...and be approved isn't going to be okay right now.

This is a global pandemic here. They are trying to stop the deaths, and hospitalizations in order to NOT overwhelm the system. For some countries that is to late, and its scares people to death. Understandably so too. It's not just the USA that are bending the rules a bit because we want to save our citizens, economy and way of life. I'm actually surprised at the acceptance of trials and other things that NEVER would have flown before.

A friend of mine has Lupus - among her other serious ailments - and has taken higher doses of this drug. Many others do too. No serious side effects, and she has many ailments. These comments about the dangers don't hit home for many that take this regularly. My H has a arthritic disease, but has never taken it. He takes another med to lower his immune system to help other drugs to tackle his condition. Yes, it is scary.

Let me tell you why in some ways - not for everyone on the face of this earth - this makes sense. From the reporting and briefings that I have watched (since I'm grounded like everyone else)? The virus attacks, and the immune system responds. It's supposed to do that of course under NORMAL circumstances. The problem with this - and with H's issue along with Friends - is that the immune system can do more harm than good. I don't know how else to describe this except the immune system is fighting the wrong battle. The enemy takes advantage of that, and kills. A visual? It brings a knife to a gun fight.

My H receives a drug that brings down his immune system - or makes it less active if you will - so a drug that can fight it head on can do its job. This isn't uncommon practice for therapy. My kids grew up getting flu shots for example all the time, and much earlier than recommended (for age of child) due to his meds. Their flu could cause major issues in our household for him due to his immunity being less active at this point. So, it was something we all took very seriously. So, if you have the one drug that Trump talks about to hold off the immune system from fighting the wrong battle, and sending in Troops that can nail the virus directly - Z Pack for example? It makes sense to me. You would also have other drugs involved too, but those are the two major ones. If you can't take Z pack due to other conditions? There are alternatives. These aren't the only two drugs of course.

This ugly treatment gives him quality of life. There is no cure that anyone has found, but the quality is there after so many years of trying so many other things. My friend with Lupus says they are over blowing the side effects of the drug, and it works in much the same manner as H's - different combo of course.

There is never a one shot approach, and we don't have time for years long trials right now. If it helps in a certain stage of the virus's attack - and NOT so effective in others? You save many. Plasma for others sounds excellent to me, and there are other approaches too.

It gives me hope that people are trying things, and some things are helping others. We had NOTHING before besides grin and bear it. I know we had a trial with his meds with no HUGE risks, and it turned out very decent. Same with the Lupus drug. You have to weight the risks with the outcome, and it seems people are pushing the risks - which your doctor would know anyway - way to much and overblown.

 

[KCfromNC]

We have a number of stories, and NOT just one from a Democrat in Michigan. I can't remember his name but he was a character from the show 'Lost', and he also got the same drug after he was sick. He lives in HI, and was the Asian character. He also touts it, but no one endorses it for everyone. The reason people bring up people like this? They are well known, and it helps.

This presumes their opinion is medically sound. If it isn't, making their opinion widespread is doing more harm than good.

 

[sfs]

According to James P. Kiley, director, Division of Lung Diseases, NHLBI. “Hydroxychloroquine has showed promise in a lab setting against SARS-CoV-2"

Of course it has -- that's why it's worth investigating as a possible therapeutic. That's the information we started with. But the great majority of compounds that show promise in a lab setting against diseases fail to be useful clinically. Chloroquine, in particular, has shown promise against many viruses in the lab and it's been tested in animals and humans against a number of them and so far it's failed in every case (including one virus that it made worse in monkeys).

 

[HannahT]

This presumes their opinion is medically sound. If it isn't, making their opinion widespread is doing more harm than good.

Actually, if your doctor prescribes it? There is normally a medical reason for it. It was both the left/right media that decided to interview these people, and I doubt they did it to cause harm.

We aren't talking about the silly story about a couple that drank fish tank fungus cleaner, because they thought they saw an ingredient in there that sounded familiar. Most people aren't going to drink fish tank stuff, and our world will never get rid of individuals that make bad judgement calls.

There are other therapies they are using, and they are just as experimental. They are throwing stuff at this virus because it is a global threat. They don't have time to do studies and all the rest for any of it due to our circumstance right now.

I think going radio silent because because they can't back up these treatments that your doctor is trying to help you with because its not up to the 'medically sound' standard we are used to would be very harmful.

 

[jayem]

Here in the EU we are currently talking about two:
- Remdesivir (USA)
- Avigan (Japan)

One of our patient in critical state got Remdesivir treatment and got better, but doctors are not certain if its because of the drug. They are midly optimistic about it, though.

Yes. Remdesivir has potential. It blocks viral replication by inhibiting RNA polymerase, the enzyme SARS-CoV-2 uses to make copies of itself. A small study, done on very ill patients, did show some promising results. A larger study is going on now right here in St. Louis. Let’s hope it has some positive effects. Any and all effective treatment options are welcome.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007016

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Bolding mine.

This is exactly teh sort of thing that leads me to think of a case of Placebo effect.

My dad was a dentist and he was introduced me to a classic example. People who believed the mercury in old style silver fillings was causing all sorts of problems reported IMMEDIATE relief when they had the fillings replaced. The problem is that if they were right they should have felt far worse for a while because the removal process would have exposed them to far more mercury.

Though Fox News is preparing to be sued over coronavirus misinformation and are the culprits who created the avalanche of hype about HDQ with snowballs of dishonesty (by falsely presenting a charlatan as a "Stanford Med School adviser" who has no affiliation with us but is in cahoots with the Trumpian co-author of a tiny phase 1 French study that has now been backpedalled by the journal that published it (EDIT: Hydroxychloroquine-COVID-19 study did not meet publishing society’s “expected standard”), and empowering him to bamboozle viewers including Trump by promoting said study and a Google Documents paper he cowrote with a bitcoin VC that was swiftly removed) they do occasionally feature a bonafide medical expert who has the audacity to be honest. Dr. William Haseltine is legitimate, not a masquerader.

A leading scientist blasted the promotion of the "quack cure" hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 during an appearance on Fox News Monday.

Dr. William Haseltine, a former Harvard Medical School professor and researcher, made the remarks to host Dana Perino on the Monday edition of The Daily Briefing. The anti-malaria drug has been heavily promoted by President Donald Trump despite a lack of enthusiasm from many medical experts. Perino asked Haseltine whether anecdotes about people experiencing Lazarus-like recoveries after taking the drug might indicate that it could be a useful treatment.

"That is nonsense, complete and utter nonsense," Haseltine said. "In any situation there are always going to be people who promote one kind of quack cure or another and there are 'Lazarus effects.' In every epidemic I've looked at, that's always the case."

Experts have long warned against interpreting anecdotes about treatments as evidence of effectiveness, noting that a number of critically ill patients recover from illnesses regardless of the treatment and may falsely attribute a recovery to an ineffective treatment. Properly conducted studies provide reliable evidence, and Haseltine insisted that studies about hydroxychloroquine's effectiveness against the virus have been less than encouraging.

"We know that at very best, this drug will have a very mild effect on changing the course of the disease, if it has any effect at all," said Haseltine. "That is what the data has shown so far, and I am convinced that that's what further studies will show."

"That drug has been used for years against many other viruses to no effect," he added.

Although hydroxychloroquine has been used to treat other conditions for many years, Haseltine said that it was "irresponsible" to promote the drug for COVID-19, arguing that it is not harmless and can carry serious side effects.

My family members and their friends who are physicians treating people with COVID-19 have been frustrated by the hoopla surrounding HDQ because in their experience not only has its efficacy been underwhelming, it's caused side effects that exacerbate an already unbearably stressful ordeal. It can induce psychosis, and the absolute last thing you want from patients who are highly contagious is for them to become irrational and incapable of cooperating with measures implemented for their safety and those treating them. When someone begins hallucinating or gets belligerent it's not just that person who suffers and is at increased risk.

They've said the propaganda has generated armchair physicians who demand HCQ and tell the doctors - the ones who devoted years of their life to obtain their medical degrees and who've been sacrificing themselves by showing up at every shift with dedication to "do their research" on the medication. The posts I've read on this forum are what they have to suffer through in real life, from people infected with misinformation. They belligerently insist that since this medication has been available for decades and the side effects of it being used for the conditions it's been approved to treat are known and "trivial." They do not understand that's not how it works. At all. My exasperation on here with the repetition of myths makes me more aware of what healthcare workers must endure. Several hospitals have discontinued using HDQ for COVID-19 because despite what Trump has caused people to believe, there's actually a lot to lose, including your life. It's especially consternating he's pumped it as a prophylactic, which caused the frenzied spree of anyone with prescription privileges, including veterinarians and dentists, stockpiling it and creating shortages for those who depend on it as a maintenance medication for conditions like lupus.

There's been the appearance of benefit for some, but the publicity has made it even more difficult to ascertain what is a placebo effect. Repeatedly they've seen that correlation doesn't equal causation. They've had patients who weren't administered the medication have the same recovery as those who were given it, especially when there's an accurate comparison based on age, health, and most crucially the timeline of the progression of the virus. But with the latter group, they rejoice and believe the correlation of the recovery is the credit of the medication and sing praise that then gets chorused on right-wing media. Also, the medicine having been prescribed in conjunction with others has made it harder to distinguish what was actually the most beneficial.

They've had patients and their families demand HDQ and swat away at Remdesivir, acting indignant that they're being given something inferior because it's not what the swarm of buzz is about, when it's
what Johns Hopkins has described as "likely the most promising drug" in their guide for physicians (also read their comments on HDQ): Coronavirus COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) | Johns Hopkins ABX Guide

Remdesivir has entered phase 3 clinical trials. Last month the U.S. Army signed an agreement with the biotech behind Remdesivir to provide this drug to U.S. troops confirmed to have COVID-19. But yet consistently people keep insisting that HDQ is the "only hope" and anyone who provides facts contrary to that, or caution, is treated like the slaughterer of hope. Including the doctors treating patients. It's insane and sickening that Dr. Fauci now needs personal security because he's incited fury by contradicting Trump.

 

[sfs]

the Trumpian co-author of a tiny phase 1 French study that has now been retracted by the journal that published it

Not retracted (as far as I know), just disavowed.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Not retracted (as far as I know), just disavowed.

Thanks for that clarification; I'll correct my post. I'd read about it on Retraction Watch, so that word was in my mind, though it's not accurate.

Hydroxychloroquine-COVID-19 study did not meet publishing society’s “expected standard”

 

[Michael]

And some people are never sure despite mountains of evidence...and no one is stopping any of you from waiting...and waiting and waiting...in the meantime...people are being treated with HCQ+ and recovering.

Except in this case there's a molehill of evidence at best case, most of it is anecdotal, and the vast majority of people are recovering from COVID-19 with no treatment at all.

Like I said, nobody is stopping anyone from trying HCQ+, and I even might try it myself if I was seriously ill from COVID-19. I simply wouldn't have illusions about it's effectiveness.

 

[keith99]

Though Fox News is preparing to be sued over coronavirus misinformation and are the culprits who created the avalanche of hype about HDQ with snowballs of dishonesty (by falsely presenting a charlatan as a "Stanford Med School adviser" who has no affiliation with us but is in cahoots with the Trumpian co-author of a tiny phase 1 French study that has now been backpedalled by the journal that published it (EDIT: Hydroxychloroquine-COVID-19 study did not meet publishing society’s “expected standard”), and empowering him to bamboozle viewers including Trump by promoting said study and a Google Documents paper he cowrote with a bitcoin VC that was swiftly removed) they do occasionally feature a bonafide medical expert who has the audacity to be honest. Dr. William Haseltine is legitimate, not a masquerader.



My family members and their friends who are physicians treating people with COVID-19 have been frustrated by the hoopla surrounding HDQ because in their experience not only has its efficacy been underwhelming, it's caused side effects that exacerbate an already unbearably stressful ordeal. It can induce psychosis, and the absolute last thing you want from patients who are highly contagious is for them to become irrational and incapable of cooperating with measures implemented for their safety and those treating them. When someone begins hallucinating or gets belligerent it's not just that person who suffers and is at increased risk.

They've said the propaganda has generated armchair physicians who demand HCQ and tell the doctors - the ones who devoted years of their life to obtain their medical degrees and who've been sacrificing themselves by showing up at every shift with dedication to "do their research" on the medication. The posts I've read on this forum are what they have to suffer through in real life, from people infected with misinformation. They belligerently insist that since this medication has been available for decades and the side effects of it being used for the conditions it's been approved to treat are known and "trivial." They do not understand that's not how it works. At all. My exasperation on here with the repetition of myths makes me more aware of what healthcare workers must endure. Several hospitals have discontinued using HDQ for COVID-19 because despite what Trump has caused people to believe, there's actually a lot to lose, including your life. It's especially consternating he's pumped it as a prophylactic, which caused the frenzied spree of anyone with prescription privileges, including veterinarians and dentists, stockpiling it and creating shortages for those who depend on it as a maintenance medication for conditions like lupus.

There's been the appearance of benefit for some, but the publicity has made it even more difficult to ascertain what is a placebo effect. Repeatedly they've seen that correlation doesn't equal causation. They've had patients who weren't administered the medication have the same recovery as those who were given it, especially when there's an accurate comparison based on age, health, and most crucially the timeline of the progression of the virus. But with the latter group, they rejoice and believe the correlation of the recovery is the credit of the medication and sing praise that then gets chorused on right-wing media. Also, the medicine having been prescribed in conjunction with others has made it harder to distinguish what was actually the most beneficial.

They've had patients and their families demand HDQ and swat away at Remdesivir, acting indignant that they're being given something inferior because it's not what the swarm of buzz is about, when it's
what Johns Hopkins has described as "likely the most promising drug" in their guide for physicians (also read their comments on HDQ): Coronavirus COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) | Johns Hopkins ABX Guide

Remdesivir has entered phase 3 clinical trials. Last month the U.S. Army signed an agreement with the biotech behind Remdesivir to provide this drug to U.S. troops confirmed to have COVID-19. But yet consistently people keep insisting that HDQ is the "only hope" and anyone who provides facts contrary to that, or caution, is treated like the slaughterer of hope. Including the doctors treating patients. It's insane and sickening that Dr. Fauci now needs personal security because he's incited fury by contradicting Trump.

If I catch COVID-19 Remdesivir would be my treatment of choice at this point if basic support actions were not enough. Though I would probably mention that codeine has helped me in the past with general respiratory issues (very short term).

Still it is only a wide spectrum anti-viral. My hope is to avoid infection at all and baring that to manage to stay safe long enough to have an anti viral specific to COVID-19 available before I need it.

 

[sfs]

If I catch COVID-19 Remdesivir would be my treatment of choice at this point if basic support actions were not enough.

Yeah, that would be my choice, too. Well, convalescent serum would be higher on my list, if that were available.

 

[KCfromNC]

Actually, if your doctor prescribes it?

We were talking about a random politician and an actor who might have been on a TV show a while back. Neither of those are my doctor. And if my doctor did get medical advice from them, I'd change doctors.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Coronavirus Updates: Erdogan Refuses Resignation of Minister Who Led Botched Lockdown in Turkey

ETA: the headline should say that a Brazilian study into chlroquine was halted after patients started developing heart arrhythmias.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Coronavirus Updates: Erdogan Refuses Resignation of Minister Who Led Botched Lockdown in Turkey

ETA: the headline should say that a Brazilian study into chlroquine was halted after patients started developing heart arrhythmias.

This is precisely what scientists lamented when Trump incessantly, irresponsibly promoted the antimalarial drugs. The Mayo Clinic explained that hydroxychloroquine blocks one of the channels that controls the heart's electrical recharging systems, and this interference increases the possibility of the heart's rhythm degenerating into dangerous erratic heart beats, resulting ultimately in sudden cardiac death. Hospitals in France and Sweden have publicly discussed their decisions to discontinue the drugs for patients with COVID-19, and some hospitals in America have quietly done so.

Coronavirus: "nous avons déjà dû interrompre le traitement" de hydroxychloroquine-azithromycine au CHU de Nice

The doctor concludes by stating that certainly Covid-19 kills, but the cure should not be more harmful than the disease itself." That's what Swedish physicians have also stated:

Sahlgrenska stoppar behandling med malariamedicin mot covid-19
GöteborgMalariamedicinen klorokin har lyfts fram som ett mirakelmedel mot det nya coronaviruset, bland annat av Donald Trump. Nu går Sahlgrenska mot strömmen och stoppar medicinen, som kan ge svåra biverkningar.
– Vi kan inte utesluta att behandlingen gör mer skada än nytta, säger Magnus Gisslén på Sahlgrenska universitetssjukhuset.

 

[46AND2]

This is precisely what scientists lamented when Trump incessantly, irresponsibly promoted the antimalarial drugs. The Mayo Clinic explained that hydroxychloroquine blocks one of the channels that controls the heart's electrical recharging systems, and this interference increases the possibility of the heart's rhythm degenerating into dangerous erratic heart beats, resulting ultimately in sudden cardiac death. Hospitals in France and Sweden have publicly discussed their decisions to discontinue the drugs for patients with COVID-19, and some hospitals in America have quietly done so.

Coronavirus: "nous avons déjà dû interrompre le traitement" de hydroxychloroquine-azithromycine au CHU de Nice

The doctor concludes by stating that certainly Covid-19 kills, but the cure should not be more harmful than the disease itself." That's what Swedish physicians have also stated:

Sahlgrenska stoppar behandling med malariamedicin mot covid-19
GöteborgMalariamedicinen klorokin har lyfts fram som ett mirakelmedel mot det nya coronaviruset, bland annat av Donald Trump. Nu går Sahlgrenska mot strömmen och stoppar medicinen, som kan ge svåra biverkningar.
– Vi kan inte utesluta att behandlingen gör mer skada än nytta, säger Magnus Gisslén på Sahlgrenska universitetssjukhuset.

What? You mean, Mr. This Stuff Comes Naturally To Me jumped the gun? Say it ain't so!

Meh, no worries. There are plenty of antibiotics he can throw darts at for his next endorsement.

 

[Need answers]

If Trump is wrong for expressing hope in Hydoxychlorquinine, are the doctors who are using it wrong too?

 

[sfs]

If Trump is wrong for expressing hope in Hydoxychlorquinine, are the doctors who are using it wrong too?

Since I've seen no one here suggest that Trump was wrong for expressing hope in hydroxychloroquine, why are you asking the question?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If Trump is wrong for expressing hope in Hydoxychlorquinine, are the doctors who are using it wrong too?

Since the evidence is beginning to show that it is likely to do more harm than good the answer would be yes. Not because of Trump, but because what the evidence tells us.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If Trump is wrong for expressing hope in Hydoxychlorquinine, are the doctors who are using it wrong too?

Anyone can express hope, but Trump was factually wrong when he suggested that the FDA had approved it for treating COVID-19.