Hundreds of Experts Call on US

[ozso]

How can they say anything if they have been erased?

Ask them. I mean actually look into women's concerns about it.

The person on the candy wrapper isn't representing women.

How so when it's for International Women's Day?

 

[AlexB23]

Still wondering what you mean with "trans stuff has to go".

Should all transsexuals be killed?

No, not that far. What I mean, is that just as the drinking age is 21+ (in the US), or the voting age is 18, then, the trans stuff should be only meant for those 18+ or 21+, whichever works the best.

I do think the US should lower the drinking age to 18 (though at 24, I do not drink, except for a sip once every few months with parents or friends), to make it equal to the voting age, but that is another topic.

 

[BCP1928]

Ask them. I mean actually look into women's concerns about it.

I am limited to the women I actually know, who have not expressed any concerns like yours. How did you find out about it?

How so when it's for International Women's Day?

Putting a trans woman on a candy bar wrapper for an International Women's Day promotional gimmick hardly "erases women."

 

[BCP1928]

No, not that far. What I mean, is that just as the drinking age is 21+ (in the US), or the voting age is 18, then, the trans stuff should be only meant for those 18+ or 21+, whichever works the best.

I do think the US should lower the drinking age to 18 (though at 24, I do not drink, except for a sip once every few months with parents or friends), to make it equal to the voting age, but that is another topic.

OK, so how would you deal with trans kids until they are 18? Pretend they don't exist? Try to bully them out of it?

 

[ozso]

I am limited to the women I actually know, who have not expressed any concerns like yours. How did you find out about it?

Choosing not to look past your own nose doesn't put you in a position to discuss internal issues.

Putting a trans woman on a candy bar wrapper for an International Women's Day promotional gimmick hardly "erases women."

I get that you don't get it.

 

[AlexB23]

OK, so how would you deal with trans kids until they are 18? Pretend they don't exist? Try to bully them out of it?

Well, just not talking about it. Be friendly to them, but do not express support nor hatred towards them, in other words, remain neutral.

 

[ozso]

OK, so how would you deal with trans kids until they are 18? Pretend they don't exist? Try to bully them out of it?

You start with the fact that all kids go through identity issues and phases.

 

[BCP1928]

Choosing not to look past your own nose doesn't put you in a position to discuss internal issues.

Yes, the idea of asking actual women one knows about what they think of trans must seem strange to you and unlikely to produce the answers you require. I also know actual trans people who I talk to about these issues--which will definitely not produce the answers you require.
But on the whole I trust them more to tell me what they are really thinking than I do you.

I get that you don't get it.

I don't get it and I don't want it.

 

[BCP1928]

Well, just not talking about it. Be friendly to them, but do not express support nor hatred towards them, in other words, remain neutral.

This is teachers were talking about right? What you are requiring is that teachers not explain to them what is happening to them and why, and not explain it to their classmates, either.

 

[AlexB23]

This is teachers were talking about right? What you are requiring is that teachers not explain to them what is happening to them and why, and not explain it to their classmates, either.

We're done here.

 

[ozso]

Yes, the idea of asking actual women one knows about what they think of trans must seem strange to you and unlikely to produce the answers you require. I also know actual trans people who I talk to about these issues--which will definitely not produce the answers you require.
But on the whole I trust them more to tell me what they are really thinking than I do you.

Look up the term anecdotal evidence.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That’s literally a standard practice in clinic work. And what you are inferring from the meaning and application is entirely incorrect. This is not the gotcha you think it is, lol.

No, what's advertised on the Planned Parenthood page I linked (it wasn't a news article, it was directly from their own website) is certainly not the norm for things beyond standard care.

We're not talking about getting antibiotics for an ear infection, we're talking about dispensing drugs with side effects and risks that go beyond the threshold of "getting them on your first visit without a referral" (as the PP website advertises)

No, what I’m describing is actually how things are reviewed. Not the “let’s wind up the right” targeted fear to drum up panic support version of version.

This isn't a "wind up the right" thing...there's a reason why the Scandinavian countries are pumping this brakes on this and have reverted back to a much more cautious approach. Unless you feel that they'd be considered "the right", or perhaps you think all of the researchers in those countries got it wrong, and the progressive idealists in the US got it right?

The concerns couldn’t have been too bad if they ended up ruling in support of the clinic, lol.

That's because, as noted, the local judge's job is to rule on the particular case at hand, not making more sweeping decisions about the topic as a whole.

For instance, if there was a police officer who had a long history of using force, and one particular case went to court. If the judge says "Well, in this particular case, the use of force happened to be justified, but I find it concerning that over the past 5 years, you've felt the need to use force in 100% of your traffic stops"

Wow! So 100% of the people referred to the gender clinic needed treatment related to the clinic’s express purpose? Shocking! LoL! Next you’re going to tell me that everybody I see waiting to go to the GI clinic is there as a suitable candidate for GI treatments. I have a cardiologist too and I have a sneaking suspicion that 100% of his patients are cardiac related too.

It’s almost as if there is some sort of referral-based setup where the only people who go to it are people who are deemed by other doctors as needing the services of the clinic. Or some sort of acronym-based triage and treatment standard-of-care system that emphasizes putting the right referral for the right place for the patient’s treatment. Weird.

But the Planned Parenthood site (and the Boston Children's hospital and UCLA's clinic mentioned something similar), there's no referral needed.

All had statements to the similar effect as the PP website. (Boston adjusted theirs after getting some backlash, but the wayback machine still has the cached version from 2 years ago)

"In most cases you can receive a prescription for hormones on your first visit"
"No referral from a healthcare provider is required"
"Most visits can be completed in 45 minutes"

I provided more detailed information in other threads on the matter

New Study Shows Puberty Blockers May Cause Permanent Harm

I agree that there is a potential for harm by getting it wrong. I think that is why Professor Grossman advocates a professional clinical approach. These are not sweeties to be handed out on the whim of an adolescent. That is not the same as a ban. What's wrong with a ban? A clinical approach...

www.christianforums.com

Federal Judge Tosses Arkansas Law Banning Gender-Affirming Care for Children

Slavery wasn’t bad enough to initiate the Parouisa, nor the Holocaust, but this?, this is the thing that’ll do it? Jesus is the Father that went to the corner store for a pack of smokes. Any minute now he'll surely be back. Aaannnnyyy minute now...

www.christianforums.com

No, there would not be.

Yes there would eyes on it....we know this, because it happened with the "pain management" clinics that used to operate. They were dispensing drugs and saying virtually everyone walking through the door were "good candidates" to receive them. And when there started to be a nasty uptick in painkiller addiction due to over prescribing, those pain management clinics started coming under intense scrutiny and rightfully started being labelled as "pill mills"

And with regards to the comparison I made to orthopedic surgeons, despite getting lots of people referred to them, they still do surgery only as a last resort. It's not as if every GP referral to a neurosurgeon ends up yielding an actual surgery.

No, they aren’t. Somebody threw bait in the water to fish for you by triggering your righteous outrage over a non-problem and you took it. That doesn’t mean there’s a widespread issue. It means you got played by people who drum up blind support by scaring people.

But the information I provided was from the provider websites, themselves. This wasn't some random stuff I lifted off a right-wing news site.

So you're saying Planned Parenthood, Boston Children's hospital, and the Gender Clinic at UCLA are "throwing bait in the water" to trigger outrage about the service they, themselves, provide?

 

[BCP1928]

Look up the term anecdotal evidence.

It's better than the evidence you have, which seems to come from extremists on both sides of the issue.

 

[ozso]

It's better than the evidence you have, which seems to come from extremists on both sides of the issue.

 

[ozso]

You specifically went out looking for "trans chocolate". That's not even a phrase I'd think existed, let alone something I should Google and then complain about after finding it.

It's trans + chocolate. Someone said trans wasn't in their hot chocolate. Knowing how ubiquitous trans has become, I was sure I could find a connection. And I did. Proving just how pervasive it is.

If you practice a bit better quality control of what you allow into your life by your own actions, then you'll probably find that it's not as "everywhere" as your fears have primed you to think it is.

Heck, I come from the place that to most of your is synonymous with Sodom (California) -- and a staunchly liberal part of it, too -- and I can count the number of trans people I personally know on one hand. I don't mean that as some kind of brag ("Look how not-connected I am!"), but only to point out that it seems that this LGBT stuff is 'everywhere' relative to how much you (the 'general you') personally obsess over it. So if you want to see less of it, it would be in your best interest to stop interacting with content that prominently features that.

Well lets see. There's a new thread about it every few days. It's all over the news all the time. And basically viral throughout social media. Rather than cut myself off form the world around me and go live in a cave, I think I'll just continue to sit back and observe the weirdness of it all.

How about another search: trans + church. How about: trans + elementary school. How about: trans + news. How about: trans + social media. How about: trans + CF.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

You start with the fact that all kids go through identity issues and phases.

I'm in my early/mid 40s. Of the identity issues and phases I've been through, none of them included feeling like the gender I was physiologically didn't match the gender I am internally. Even when I felt completely out-of-control of my body, my basic gender identity remained constant. For most people, it's hardly "a phase," and for those who make it all the way to eligibility for surgery, they're there because they have proven it is absolutely not a phase.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

No, what's advertised on the Planned Parenthood page I linked (it wasn't a news article, it was directly from their own website) is certainly not the norm for things beyond standard care.

This is word salad.

We're not talking about getting antibiotics for an ear infection, we're talking about dispensing drugs with side effects and risks that go beyond the threshold of "getting them on your first visit without a referral" (as the PP website advertises)

Again, word salad. And a deliberate misrepresentation of what the site says.

This isn't a "wind up the right" thing...there's a reason why the Scandinavian countries are pumping this brakes on this and have reverted back to a much more cautious approach. Unless you feel that they'd be considered "the right", or perhaps you think all of the researchers in those countries got it wrong, and the progressive idealists in the US got it right?

This is a "wind up the right" thing, and they're hardly "pumping the brakes" so much as they're outlining a standard of reporting and care after the procedure so they can learn long-term effects.

And I've yet to see why what "Scandinavian countries" do has anything to do with anything.

That's because, as noted, the local judge's job is to rule on the particular case at hand, not making more sweeping decisions about the topic as a whole.

Uh... Well, that's not true. LoL! A judge decides on a case which creates precedents that are applied by other judges and sought by other litigants. They don't issue rulings in a vacuum.

For instance, if there was a police officer who had a long history of using force, and one particular case went to court. If the judge says "Well, in this particular case, the use of force happened to be justified, but I find it concerning that over the past 5 years, you've felt the need to use force in 100% of your traffic stops"

A medical procedure is sought out and occurs with consent. How does that have anything in common with the use-of-force in an authoritative scenario, which occurs without consent?

But the Planned Parenthood site (and the Boston Children's hospital and UCLA's clinic mentioned something similar), there's no referral needed.

Yes, there is. It's literally at the bottom of that site you linked, lol.

All had statements to the similar effect as the PP website. (Boston adjusted theirs after getting some backlash, but the wayback machine still has the cached version from 2 years ago)

"In most cases you can receive a prescription for hormones on your first visit"
"No referral from a healthcare provider is required"
"Most visits can be completed in 45 minutes"

You can keep arguing about it, but you're flat out wrong. They're not responsible for your misreading their website.

I provided more detailed information in other threads on the matter

New Study Shows Puberty Blockers May Cause Permanent Harm

I agree that there is a potential for harm by getting it wrong. I think that is why Professor Grossman advocates a professional clinical approach. These are not sweeties to be handed out on the whim of an adolescent. That is not the same as a ban. What's wrong with a ban? A clinical approach...

www.christianforums.com

Federal Judge Tosses Arkansas Law Banning Gender-Affirming Care for Children

Slavery wasn’t bad enough to initiate the Parouisa, nor the Holocaust, but this?, this is the thing that’ll do it? Jesus is the Father that went to the corner store for a pack of smokes. Any minute now he'll surely be back. Aaannnnyyy minute now...

www.christianforums.com

Thanks to the gaslighting and hysteria you're exhibiting, I am barely holding onto the interest to read this thread. I'm certainly not going to another thread where you're doing it there.

Yes there would eyes on it....we know this, because it happened with the "pain management" clinics that used to operate. They were dispensing drugs and saying virtually everyone walking through the door were "good candidates" to receive them. And when there started to be a nasty uptick in painkiller addiction due to over prescribing, those pain management clinics started coming under intense scrutiny and rightfully started being labelled as "pill mills"

While I enjoy the mansplaining of the industry I know more about than you do, that's not exactly how that happened, but Ok.

And with regards to the comparison I made to orthopedic surgeons, despite getting lots of people referred to them, they still do surgery only as a last resort. It's not as if every GP referral to a neurosurgeon ends up yielding an actual surgery.

If you're being referred to any department with "surgeon" in the title, you're absolutely going to get evaluated for surgery. And because that's all they do, yes, an overwhelming number of them get surgery. Your whole "it's only a last resort" rationalization is your lack of understanding of the industry, not how it actually works, lol. If I'm calling for a referral with a surgeon with a patient that I didn't actually intend for surgery, I'm wasting everybody's time.

But the information I provided was from the provider websites, themselves. This wasn't some random stuff I lifted off a right-wing news site.

So you're saying Planned Parenthood, Boston Children's hospital, and the Gender Clinic at UCLA are "throwing bait in the water" to trigger outrage about the service they, themselves, provide?

I'm saying that you're so keen to be wound up about this that you're looking for reasons to be upset, then when you're told that you're extrapolating something that isn't there, you resort to gaslighting. As somebody with direct knowledge on how this all works, I know for 100% fact, you're wrong. But even if I wasn't in the medical industry for a decade or reliant or constant-mid level care for ongoing care which requires a higher than average level of supervision, based off of what you've given me, I can still see that's just not how what you're talking about works.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

mansplaining

Yes, there is. It's literally at the bottom of that site you linked, lol.

Here's the full contents of the page I linked (did you perhaps go to one of the other links somewhere else on the site that says something different?):

Full Copy/Paste:

Before you visit, please call to make an appointment and request gender affirming hormone therapy.

In most cases your clinician will be able to prescribe hormones the same day as your first visit. No letter from a mental health provider is required.

If you’re starting gender affirming hormone therapy, you’ll have an initial appointment with baseline lab work (blood draw) and then follow-up appointments. *

The receptionist may give you paperwork for the Family PACT Program (California locations only). *

All services are confidential (except in cases of abuse), so being open with the clinician will ensure that you are receiving the best health care. When you are called back to meet with the clinician you may be requested to provide a complete medical history, as well as a history of your sexuality and sexual practices in order for us to provide the best care.

You may consult with one of our clinicians and receive a physical assessment and lab testing as appropriate for monitoring hormones and your transition.



None of this negates or "disproves" what I said. They're fast-tracking it, and none of this suggests that you need to have a previous referral.


"You'll have some blood work done, and you may be asked to provide a complete medical history" is not the same as actual due diligence when it comes to the screening process for these sorts of things.


Checking lab numbers to make sure one's organs are healthy enough to support taking a specific drug/hormone isn't the same as doing a deep dive into whether or not it's appropriate for the person to be taking the drug in the first place.

Their bit about "no letter from a mental health provider is required" is concerning. Spending time with an unbiased (unbiased, as in, not affiliated with the clinic offering the transition services) should be the frontline treatment for these things, and only if they make the recommendation to proceed, should the process move forward.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care/

Reuters (certainly not a right-wing publication) delved into it a little more.


Dr Annelou de Vries, a specialist in child and adolescent psychiatry, is one of the Dutch researchers whose early work established the importance of rigorous patient assessments before starting medical treatment. She said that while she worries about the growing number of children awaiting treatment, the graver sin is to move too fast when puberty blockers and hormones may not be appropriate.

In interviews with Reuters, doctors and other staff at 18 gender clinics across the country described their processes for evaluating patients. None described anything like the months-long assessments de Vries and her colleagues adopted in their research.

At most of the clinics, a team of professionals – typically a social worker, a psychologist and a doctor specializing in adolescent medicine or endocrinology – initially meets with the parents and child for two hours or more to get to know the family, their medical history and their goals for treatment. They also discuss the benefits and risks of treatment options. Seven of the clinics said that if they don’t see any red flags and the child and parents are in agreement, they are comfortable prescribing puberty blockers or hormones based on the first visit.

So, to recap, when Reuters interviewed doctors and staff from 18 different gender clinics, 7 of the clinics basically said they prescribe hormones and puberty blockers on the first visit after only meeting with the parents and child for "two hours or more".

That's not what any sane person would consider "thoughtful consideration" for a matter of such potential gravity. Spending a few hours with the person and then submitting the prescription isn't due diligence from a counseling perspective.

That more closely resembles the hasty trajectory that happened with ADHD medication a few years back.


(point of reference, the aforementioned de Vries is a psychiatrist and researcher who worked for 19 years at what was the first transgender clinic in the world)

The Battle Over Gender Therapy (Published 2022)

More teenagers than ever are seeking transitions, but the medical community that treats them is deeply divided about why — and what to do to help them.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I'm also not fixated on a simplistic left vs right dichotomy

There are other who also think it is too simplistic.

Left–right political spectrum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org