Human Value

[dlamberth]

I think one of the things that helps to make us a more human, Human Being is when we widen our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. From there, the true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they interact with the Earth and those we share it with.

 

[dlamberth]

If one doesn't consider that humans are made in the image of God, then we are no more valuable than animals, which is pretty much what animal rightists believe, that a pig is a dog is a boy. Scary thought to me, that anyone can think that way.

On the other hand, if one considers that all of Nature is an activity of God, than every bit of what Nature births, including people, is of equal value to the Source of all.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's the logical conclusion. If evolution created us then we are just smart animals.

Evolution doesn’t create. And how are you defining “animals”? If you are referring to a warm blooded, air breathing, omnivore, whether you like it or not; ya gotta admit that does describe humans.

 

[renniks]

On the other hand, if one considers that all of Nature is an activity of God, than every bit of what Nature births, including people, is of equal value to the Source of all.

Well that leaves out the biblical God. Because he ordered people to sacrifice animals.

 

[renniks]

Evolution doesn’t create. And how are you defining “animals”? If you are referring to a warm blooded, air breathing, omnivore, whether you like it or not; ya gotta admit that does describe humans.

No, God created. And being mammals does not make us animals.

 

[durangodawood]

I think we need to be careful using that definition. Because if no-one cares for you, in fact if people actively consider you a detriment to their society, then they can be deemed to have no value. And removed from that society.

But thats exactly what does happen, indicating the definition is accurate.

I dont mean non-valued people are taken out and shot.... just shunned and basically exiled, right in our midst. Removed from society, essentially.

 

[Speedwell]

No, God created. And being mammals does not make us animals.

So then we must be vegetables or minerals right?

It's the logical conclusion. If evolution created us then we are just smart animals.

I wonder why only creationists are convinced by that "logic?"

 

[Bradskii]

But thats exactly what does happen, indicating the definition is accurate.

I dont mean non-valued people are taken out and shot.... just shunned and basically exiled, right in our midst. Removed from society, essentially.

I mean that if that happens, then people have used that definition to take people out of society. And have claimed that that definition allows them to do it. It obviously isn't an excuse to do so.

Hence my warning that we should be careful in using it.

 

[Bradskii]

No, God created. And being mammals does not make us animals.

You must have been sick the day they did taxonomy. What does your personal classification system look like?

 

[renniks]

You must have been sick the day they did taxonomy. What does your personal classification system look like?

Mankind have souls. Animals don't.

 

[Bradskii]

Mankind have souls. Animals don't.

Shades of Joseph Merrik's crie de coeur 'I am not an animal!'

Which I think is the problem with most Christians who hold us to be different in 'kind' to animals. It's almost shameful to contemplate it. But you do know we still have a lot of our ancient animal instincts that point to our heritage. Ever cower? Or snarl? Clench a fist? Feel the excitement of a sporting event? Felt the hairs stand up on your arm when you feel fear?

Your amygdala and your brain stem (the repillian part of your brain) will catch you out almost every time. Will point you to your distant past.

 

[Ken-1122]

Mankind have souls. Animals don't.

What makes you think animals don't have souls?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Mankind have souls. Animals don't.

Demonstrate this.

 

[durangodawood]

Demonstrate this.

Like so many things, its a matter of faith - no matter how adamantly asserted.

 

[Tom 1]

What is the basis of human value? If one doesn't consider humans to be created in the image of God, which is often considered a basis for human value for some theists, what confers human value, if anything? There are a number of religious conceptions and non-religious conceptions possible here, I assume.

Do humans have inherent value? If so, how so? If not, why not?

Here are some possibilities that come to my mind, if we assume human value has no transcendent, metaphysical (inherent) basis, resting solely (if at all) on properties of being human:

A. All humans have value due to a conjunction of properties that all humans share, e.g. all humans are alive + all have potential to contribute to the common well-being + all care about their own well-being, etc. (The list of properties might be very different than these, but there are some properties that all humans share that confers value on the every member of the whole).

B. All humans have value because we value ourselves and by an act of empathy can see others as being similar, with similar wants and needs. (This would be something like the golden rule-treat others as you want to be treated-which seems to be ubiquitous among the world's religions and philosophies.)

C. Only some humans have value based on their peculiar set of properties. There are a couple possibilities here.
1. All humans of value share similar properties (intelligent + cooperative + contributes to the well-being of all + industrious). (These, again, could be very different, but all humans of value share similar properties. Also, those who don't share that set are not of value.)
2. Some humans are of value, but they might have radically different sets of value-conferring properties and they only have value in relation to some people. (For example, there are some people that have value according to me for various reasons. There is a different set that has value to you. Human value is idiosyncratic to the one who confers human value.)

I am sure there are other possibilities. And, it might be that some hold that no humans have value, which I would be really interested in hearing more about.

B makes sense to me. I also think there are other, more visceral factors. In terms of perceived value I think it's probably true that people tend to value others who are more like them than others, part of their tribe as it were, and that if that is the case it is a deep-rooted instinct. But that can mean a whole range of things in different contexts. There are also more relative factors, like the value an individual has to their society or family, which is relative to their lifestyle and behaviour/attitude etc.

 

[renniks]

Shades of Joseph Merrik's crie de coeur 'I am not an animal!'

Which I think is the problem with most Christians who hold us to be different in 'kind' to animals. It's almost shameful to contemplate it. But you do know we still have a lot of our ancient animal instincts that point to our heritage. Ever cower? Or snarl? Clench a fist? Feel the excitement of a sporting event? Felt the hairs stand up on your arm when you feel fear?

Your amygdala and your brain stem (the repillian part of your brain) will catch you out almost every time. Will point you to your distant past.

Lol, we are more than our worst instincts.
And you assume animals feel emotions? Not like we do.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Like so many things, its a matter of faith - no matter how adamantly asserted.

So no reason to believe, then.

 

[Bradskii]

Lol, we are more than our worst instincts.
And you assume animals feel emotions? Not like we do.

We are indeed better than our instincts (which are not the same as emotions by the way). They subconsciously control much of what we do but we have reached a position where, with some effort and some thought, we can do what we think is right as opposed to what is natural.

And of course animals feel emotions. There are too many examples to bother linking to them showing fear, happiness, anger, tenderness, lust, frustration...the list goes on and on. And we exhibit the same ones. Not unsurprisingly...

 

[Bradskii]

Demonstrate this.

I've always found this to be a Catch 22 situation. From many discussions re the soul it's.always been pointed out to me in the first instance that animals don't posses that which the soul gives us. When it's shown that they often do (intelligence, emotions, love for others etc), it's then stated that the soul is what makes us different from animals - what makes us human. So by definition animals can't posses it.

At which point I generaly ask 'why on earth didn't you say that the first time?'

 

[dlamberth]

Mankind have souls. Animals don't.

If they're breathing, they have souls.