Human Value

[dlamberth]

Can you provide an outside source (dictionary.com, Wikipedia etc) that supports your definition?

Nope. It's an area that the mystics of the various spiritual traditions go to, including those who are Christians. It's a way of experiencing the reach of consciousness. Because it's from a non-duality perspective most will never go there.

 

[Ken-1122]

What question?

From post #115
If we found a planet that contained intelligent life, but they looked different from us (thus not in God’s image and no souls)Do you think this give us the moral right to treat them as we treat animals here on Earth; assuming we have the ability to do so?

 

[Ken-1122]

Intelligence and awareness of your surroundings are not the same at all. Lots of super-intelligent people are lost in their own little worlds.

Can you give an example of such a person who is completely unaware of their surroundings?

 

[renniks]

Can you give an example of such a person who is completely unaware of their surroundings?

Actually it's pretty much the hallmark of genius. The absent-minded professor syndrome. I'm not saying they are always unaware, obviously. I don't know that I'm a super-intellect, but I often am off somewhere in my head arguing with myself when I should be focused on the job at hand. Just ask my wife...

 

[renniks]

From post #115
If we found a planet that contained intelligent life, but they looked different from us (thus not in God’s image and no souls)Do you think this give us the moral right to treat them as we treat animals here on Earth; assuming we have the ability to do so?

I'm not sure why I would assume they had no souls if they didn't look like us? God's image is the soul and spirit in us as far as I'm concerned. So I would think not.

 

[Ken-1122]

Nope. It's an area that the mystics of the various spiritual traditions go to, including those who are Christians. It's a way of experiencing the reach of consciousness. Because it's from a non-duality perspective most will never go there.

Yeah; I kinda figured something like that.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm not sure why I would assume they had no souls if they didn't look like us? God's image is the soul and spirit in us as far as I'm concerned. So I would think not.

Before you said only man is in God's image with a spiritual side. Why would you consider life on another planet might have a soul, but not a dog or a cat?

 

[renniks]

Before you said only man is in God's image with a spiritual side. Why would you consider life on another planet might have a soul, but not a dog or a cat?

Because there's a vast difference between man and animals. Where in the Bible are we told that Jesus died for your horse or dog? He didn't, because they aren't eternal beings. If God did this on some other planet, which is doubtful, that's a whole other question.

 

[Ken-1122]

Because there's a vast difference between man and animals.

And there's a vast difference between man and the beings on the other planet too!

Where in the Bible are we told that Jesus died for your horse or dog?

Where in the Bible are we told Jesus died for those on other planets?

He didn't, because they aren't eternal beings.

How is this different?

If God did this on some other planet, which is doubtful, that's a whole other question.

And that's the question I'm asking. Care to answer THAT question?

 

[renniks]

And that's the question I'm asking. Care to answer THAT question?

I just did.
Read CS Lewis's space trilogy. If the same thing happened on multiple planets, then Jesus died in some way for all beings on those planets, that have souls. I think that would be pretty easy to check into. Men have always worshiped something. It follows the beings on another planet with souls would also worship.

 

[Ken-1122]

I just did.
Read CS Lewis's space trilogy. If the same thing happened on multiple planets, then Jesus died in some way for all beings on those planets, that have souls. I think that would be pretty easy to check into. Men have always worshiped something. It follows the beings on another planet with souls would also worship.

So it is your view, that if the beings on this other planet do not worship God, we as humans have a moral right to treat them as we do animals on this planet that do not worship God; is that your position?
Also isn't there somewhere in Isaiah where it says

the Best of the field will honor me

Now I know it says nothing about fish in water, or birds in the sky, but does this mean all mammals (beasts of the field) have souls since they know God?

 

[Whyayeman]

That instruction goes past human nature, don't you agree?

Actually no. I would say that it is an expression of the best of human nature. But then (shock, horror), I don't believe in the divinity of the instructor!

That is part of why I describe myself as an atheist.

 

[Halbhh]

Actually no. I would say that it is an expression of the best of human nature. But then (shock, horror), I don't believe in the divinity of the instructor!

That is part of why I describe myself as an atheist.

By 'nature' I did not mean all things people do, but instead the natural instinctual impulses in us, what is sometimes called "the body".

People also do amazingly wonderful acts of kindness and generous aid to others, even self-sacrifice, from the thoughts of their minds, which include learned ideas/ideals.

So, there we have 2 forces at least then: the instinctual and the learned.

"Nature and nurture", to use the old phrasing.

So, when I used the phrase "goes pasts human nature" I'm implicitly referring to other forces in our minds (not innate, not natural), such as learned ideals.

Cultural ideas/ideals can of course be variously beneficial or harmful (there's quite a range of ideas), but many of the ideals are quite helpful and beneficial to civilization, civil society, peaceful coexistence.

Here's an example of a learned idea/ideal that is highly beneficial to society:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

To the extent the people of a nation follow this rule, just to that extent, the nation will be a good place to live.