Human Evolution

[DogmaHunter]

...r and Creationists think they came from the ark and speciated within their kinds.

That is a genetic impossibility. Just so you know.

If a flood indeed happened as described in the myth of noah, then there should be a genetic bottleneck in ALL species. In every single one of them. But there isn't. So it never happened.

Furthermore, even if we would bend over backwards and assume here for a second that the lack of bottlenecks doesn't matter... Even then it's a biological impossibility. Because it would require evolution to go at a rate which is exponentially faster then what evolution theory actually suggests.

You're then looking at more then 30 speciation events PER DAY for the past 4000 years. This is beyond stupid.

Literally. I don't want to be insulting, but that's just beyond stupid.
It flies in the face of everything we observe in biology, genetics, the fossil record,... everything.

The biblical flood myth is PROVEN WRONG beyond any doubt through physics, climatology, biology, genetics, geology, archeology, paleontology,...

The fact that there are people in the developed world who believe this story baffles me. It's quite frankly depressing.

The fact that so many people in the US believe this, a country that has enough nukes to fry the planet multiple times over by pushing a few buttons, quite frankly downright SCARES me.

 

[anyathesword]

Errr... there's a whole field dedicated to exactly that.
It's called taxonomy. Maybe you should look into that one of these days.

Yes, thank you, I am well aware of that...

 

[anyathesword]

Anya, you seem to have overlooked my question....

Of course there is alot of things and détails I could be wrong about..but not creationism and the Flood.

 

[Sayre]

Of course there is alot of things and détails I could be wrong about..but not creationism and the Flood.

Where does this confidence come from? Other Christians disagree from you so it can't be from God.

 

[Chany]

That is a genetic impossibility. Just so you know.

If a flood indeed happened as described in the myth of noah, then there should be a genetic bottleneck in ALL species. In every single one of them. But there isn't. So it never happened.

Furthermore, even if we would bend over backwards and assume here for a second that the lack of bottlenecks doesn't matter... Even then it's a biological impossibility. Because it would require evolution to go at a rate which is exponentially faster then what evolution theory actually suggests.

You're then looking at more then 30 speciation events PER DAY for the past 4000 years. This is beyond stupid.

Literally. I don't want to be insulting, but that's just beyond stupid.
It flies in the face of everything we observe in biology, genetics, the fossil record,... everything.

The biblical flood myth is PROVEN WRONG beyond any doubt through physics, climatology, biology, genetics, geology, archeology, paleontology,...

The fact that there are people in the developed world who believe this story baffles me. It's quite frankly depressing.

The fact that so many people in the US believe this, a country that has enough nukes to fry the planet multiple times over by pushing a few buttons, quite frankly downright SCARES me.

I never thought about the Flood in that way. Thank you for sharing this perspective of why it cannot of happened.

 

[biggles53]

Of course there is alot of things and détails I could be wrong about..but not creationism and the Flood.

Thank you.....your answer is what I thought it would be...that there is no possibility that your view about creationism could be wrong...

Then you are most certainly a liar...

Let me repeat in case you didn't get that.......you have lied outright from the beginning of this thread...

One of the first declarations you made was that you were "prepared to learn"...you have repeated this lie several times throughout the thread...

In order to learn Anya, we must be prepared to make one of two admissions, or both......we must either have an incomplete knowledge or an incorrect one. The process of learning is how we correct this faulty knowledge...

But you don't need that, do you...? Because, as you have just stated, there is no possibility that you could be wrong in your understanding...

So you have lied to us...

Arrete tes conneries....

 

[anyathesword]

That is a genetic impossibility. Just so you know.

If a flood indeed happened as described in the myth of noah, then there should be a genetic bottleneck in ALL species. In every single one of them. But there isn't. So it never happened.

Furthermore, even if we would bend over backwards and assume here for a second that the lack of bottlenecks doesn't matter... Even then it's a biological impossibility. Because it would require evolution to go at a rate which is exponentially faster then what evolution theory actually suggests.

You're then looking at more then 30 speciation events PER DAY for the past 4000 years. This is beyond stupid.

Literally. I don't want to be insulting, but that's just beyond stupid.
It flies in the face of everything we observe in biology, genetics, the fossil record,... everything.

The biblical flood myth is PROVEN WRONG beyond any doubt through physics, climatology, biology, genetics, geology, archeology, paleontology,...

The fact that there are people in the developed world who believe this story baffles me. It's quite frankly depressing.

The fact that so many people in the US believe this, a country that has enough nukes to fry the planet multiple times over by pushing a few buttons, quite frankly downright SCARES me.

Are you talking about species on land or in the water or both?

 

[anyathesword]

Are you talking about species on land or in the water or both?

Here, I can upload files like this.. anyway here is the difference in skeleton bones between frog and salamander.

 

[Nithavela]

What's the point, Anya? You have lied to us and said that you would be willing to learn, but just now admitted that there is nothing short of a miracle that could show you that were wrong concerning the things we are talking about.

Thank you for wasting all of our time.

 

[anyathesword]

Thank you.....your answer is what I thought it would be...that there is no possibility that your view about creationism could be wrong...

Then you are most certainly a liar...

Let me repeat in case you didn't get that.......you have lied outright from the beginning of this thread...

One of the first declarations you made was that you were "prepared to learn"...you have repeated this lie several times throughout the thread...

In order to learn Anya, we must be prepared to make one of two admissions, or both......we must either have an incomplete knowledge or an incorrect one. The process of learning is how we correct this faulty knowledge...

But you don't need that, do you...? Because, as you have just stated, there is no possibility that you could be wrong in your understanding...

So you have lied to us...

Arrete tes conneries....

Are you out of your mind?

Why don't you reverse what you just said and apply it to yourself Mr. biggles.

I have not lied one ounce.

My view of Creationism is not wrong period. If I say it is wrong, I say that God is wrong. And who am I or even YOU have the right to say that God, the Creator is wrong?

That is the bottom line here, it's not about science, it's not about evidence, it's about God, that's it.

You will be on ignore from now on, because one you keep talking nonsense and two you accuse me of being something I am not, and that is disrespesctful from a grown man (if of course you aren't lying about your age).

My view is my view, you have no right to it, you can not tell me anything.

In fact, you and many others in this forum are a GREAT example on how you treat Creationist people. Welcome to the real world, Mr. Biggles.

It is the exact same in Universities, in science, and throughout our whole society. Thank you for being a great example.

Now excuse me, I have other things to focus on, say hello to the ignore button.

 

[biggles53]

Are you out of your mind?

Why don't you reverse what you just said and apply it to yourself Mr. biggles.

I have not lied one ounce.

My view of Creationism is not wrong period. If I say it is wrong, I say that God is wrong. And who am I or even YOU have the right to say that God, the Creator is wrong?

That is the bottom line here, it's not about science, it's not about evidence, it's about God, that's it.

You will be on ignore from now on, because one you keep talking nonsense and two you accuse me of being something I am not, and that is disrespesctful from a grown man (if of course you aren't lying about your age).

My view is my view, you have no right to it, you can not tell me anything.

In fact, you and many others in this forum are a GREAT example on how you treat Creationist people. Welcome to the real world, Mr. Biggles.

It is the exact same in Universities, in science, and throughout our whole society. Thank you for being a great example.

Now excuse me, I have other things to focus on, say hello to the ignore button.

Afraid of the truth...? Then by all means, run away from it.....you wouldn't be the first...

Yes, you have lied, but it's nice to see you reveal your true colours at last...

You have no interest in learning whatsoever.....just in preaching and denying...

Truly pitiful....

 

[anyathesword]

Where does this confidence come from? Other Christians disagree from you so it can't be from God.

Sayre it comes from knowing what is the Ultimate Authority for mankind is. It comes from knowing who God is. Many Christians disagree with alot of things the Bible says, so what?

The Bible is the Authority here, not science, not man, not our imaginations, not our feelings, not our proffessors, etc.

My confidence comes in the Lord, in His word, The Bible, and in his Son, Jesus Christ. If this didn't exist, I would have no confidence at all and no rock to stand on.

That's it.

 

[anyathesword]

What's the point, Anya? You have lied to us and said that you would be willing to learn, but just now admitted that there is nothing short of a miracle that could show you that were wrong concerning the things we are talking about.

Thank you for wasting all of our time.

Dude, did I get something right for once? Our discussion of the fossil meant nothing to you? Did you learn ANYTHING from it?

You didn't respond.

These attacks always come at the good moments...maybe you all finally start to see something just isn't right here...

You all need to stop these attacks, its looking very bad for your side and evolution....

 

[Nithavela]

If you wish to interpret the fact that people give up bashing their heads against the wall that is your mind as a victory for your side of the debate, you're free to do that.

 

[Chany]

Are you talking about species on land or in the water or both?

Based upon the line of thinking he brings up, it would apply to both. Though not as clearly destructive, the difference between salt water and fresh water would wreck havoc upon the species unable to live in it. Most salt water fish can't survive in fresh water, and vice versa.

 

[anyathesword]

If you wish to interpret the fact that people give up bashing their heads against the wall that is your mind as a victory for your side of the debate, you're free to do that.

I don't really know what you are talking about but whatever.

In fact we can do the same thing with other fossils if you would like..

 

[DogmaHunter]

Are you talking about species on land or in the water or both?

ANY species.

The flood story makes several predictions that MUST check out. If they don't, the story is FALSE, debunked, disproven, falsified.

One of these predictions is a universal genetic bottleneck in all of life. A genetic bottleneck happens when a population is reduced to a bare minimum. This greatly reduces the genetic variation in that population and this shows in the genetic record.

For example...
In all non-african humans, we can find such a bottleneck. When estimating when this bottleneck appeared, it correlates withing acceptable margins of error with the fossil record that shows the migration out of africa of homo sapiens. Africans, which are homo sapiens that weren't part of this migration, do not show this bottleneck.

This is because most homo sapiens didn't migrate. They stayed in africa and retained their big pool of genetic variation. A small tribe moved out and went on to populate the rest of the world. All caucasians, asians etc are descended from that group and thus exhibit traces of that limited pool of genetic variation.

This is why there is LESS genetic variation between a random Caucasian and a random Asian person then there is between a random African and his unrelated African neighbor.

Going further still, we can find a genetic bottleneck amongst ALL homo sapiens. Analysis shows that the population of humans at some point was on the brink of extinction, with an estimated low population count of only a few thousand individuals. The estimations of when this took place correlates with big volcanic eruptions elsewhere on the continent.

So now that you know what a genetic bottleneck is...
Noah's boat predicts that ALL species (ow, sorry... "kinds" lol) that were present on that boat should exhibit the BIGGEST genetic bottleneck EVER witnessed. I'ld even add that biologically seeing, a population that falls below some 200 individuals has very very high chances of going extinct. But let's let that even slide for the moment.

The fact remains that NO organism exhibits any such severe bottleneck. At all. The only way the flood could have happened is if ALL land animals (at least - throwing you another bone here) had such a severe bottleneck and ALL of these bottlenecks should date back to the exact same period some 4000 years ago.

This universal bottleneck does...not...exist.

Therefor, the story is false. False. FALSE.

 

[DogmaHunter]

My view of Creationism is not wrong period. If I say it is wrong, I say that God is wrong. And who am I or even YOU have the right to say that God, the Creator is wrong?

Actually, you'ld only be saying that a specific interpretation of a specific book that claims to be representative of a god is wrong.

Which does not invalidate other interpretations of the book nore does it invalidate the god it claims to represent.

You need to let go of your dogmatic presuppositions. They are making it impossible for you to learn new things.

That is the bottom line here, it's not about science, it's not about evidence, it's about God, that's it.

Then conversation with you is futile.
I'll also add that any attempt at education for you is equally futile.

Whenever a person says that the evidence doesn't matter, the conversation is over and all credibility is lost.

Where's your intellectual integrity?

My view is my view, you have no right to it, you can not tell me anything.

With all due respect, you have the right to have whatever view you want.
You don't, however, have the right to your own facts.

It's fine if you, like above, plainly admit that facts and evidence don't interest you and that you'll follow your religion in fundamentalist ways no matter what the evidence suggests. But just be honest about that.

It is the exact same in Universities, in science, and throughout our whole society. Thank you for being a great example.

Sorry, but with all due respect again, people like you have no place in science. And the reason for that was given by you: "it's not about evidence". Science IS all about evidence.

Again, it's fine that evidence doesn't matter to you. You just want to hold your beliefs and again, that's fine (i guess). But please, don't expect such unscientific mentalities to be welcome in scientific contexts.
Keep them at your church where they belong.

 

[anyathesword]

Afraid of the truth...? Then by all means, run away from it.....you wouldn't be the first...

Yes, you have lied, but it's nice to see you reveal your true colours at last...

You have no interest in learning whatsoever.....just in preaching and denying...

Truly pitiful....

"In 2011, when new textbooks were presented to the State Board of Education, 9 out of 10 failed to provide the mandated supplementary curricula, which would include both positive and negative aspects of evolution (44)." Citing Discovery Institute's Report on the Texas Textbooks, he laments:

everal of the textbooks continued to incorrectly promote the debunked Miller-Urey origin of life experiment, the long-discredited claims about nonfunctional appendix and tonsils, and the fraudulent embryo drawings from Ernst Haeckel. In essence, current biology students, aspiring medical students, and future scientists are not being taught the whole story. Rather, evidence suggests that they continue to receive incorrect and incomplete material that exaggerates the effect of random mutation and natural selection to account for DNA, the cell, or the transition from species to species.

Kuhn concludes, "It is therefore time to sharpen the minds of students, biologists, and physicians for the possibility of a new paradigm."
CSC - Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design (Annotated)

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Dude, did I get something right for once? Our discussion of the fossil meant nothing to you? Did you learn ANYTHING from it?

You didn't respond.

These attacks always come at the good moments...maybe you all finally start to see something just isn't right here...

You all need to stop these attacks, its looking very bad for your side and evolution....

I don't think anyone is listening to you any more. If you should ever decide that you might be wrong about anything, you could try again, but in the meantime good luck with creationism. You'll need it.