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hugs and islam

P

peaceinislam

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He said he cannot prove it just as you cannot prove that all Nazis were Protestant Christians.
He also had a good point. Islamic terrorist kill in the name of Islam and Allah. Nazis did not kill in the name of Christianity. You really can't make an accurate comparison between the two.
Nice try at rewriting history, though. You really have to admire anyone with such a capacity for ignoring reality, evidence and attested historicity, and in the face of it all, still constructing the world they wish were there, rather than seeing the one that is.

muslim terrorists do not kill in the name of islam. they do it based on their dire socio-political conditions, in which religion gets used as a kind of rallying call. it isnt about religion. religion gets caught up in it. muslims have taken responsibility for this by condemning it the world over. it isnt islam, & it isn’t the Islamic tradition either.

All religions teach about the sanctity of life:
5:32 For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

1 of the most amazing verses in the quran actually says that if your mother/sister/brother/relative etc. is murdered, u may seek justice. But that u may also forgive, & ask for reasonable compensation instead, to avoid more killing:
2:178-179 O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission (in forgiveness) is made by the brother (or the relatives etc.) of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves (from evil, & become of the pious).

Nor does islam allow suicide:
4:29 O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.

fighting in quran is only restricted to defence & against oppression. both taking innocent life & ones own life is totally transgressing the limits of islam. NOWHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT EVER GIVE PERMISION TO KILL AN INNOCENT PERSON:
2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. Allah does not love transgressors

What is so hypocritical is how Christians insist on making blanket judgments about islam, while glossing over their own history – like that of Christian nazi germany, which is just one example. The list is actually so much longer. The only reason I even brought up nazi germany is becoz u arrogantly really go out of your way to attack islam, things that are in fact anti-islamic in any case, & things that aren’t even related to the OP, when the western Christian tradition of violence is absolutely dismal. Its both ignorant & hypocritical. more recently bush called his estimated 1/2 million dead in afghanistan & iraq, a "crusade" & that "god is on our side."

But im not calling Christianity terrorism. There is no such thing as a divinely revealed religion of terrorism. There isn’t such a thing as jewish or Islamic terrorism either. Terrorism has no religion. it is committed by many faiths, & against their own people. It comes from other things. through either ignorance or hatred of islam, these fingers get pointed. We could make exactly the same statements about Christians u know.

(Some sites showing how Christian the nazis thought they were, that they justified it through the bible, that those sort of ‘chosen race’ concepts predated the Nazis & was found in many other christian countries also):

“The (German) leaders they did esteem were recognizably Protestant. And one of those actually is, as frightening as it sounds, a theology which recognized the Volk or the race or the people, as one of the orders ordained by God. Now, this sounds heretical today, the idea that race is one of God's creations, but one hundred years ago, even before the Nazis, you begin to see varieties of Protestant thought which suggested just that. It is called a Theology of the Orders of Creation. And it was quite current in Lutheran circles both before the Nazis and during the Nazis, too.

Lutheran scholars began to argue that along with the family and the state, God had made the race, the Volk, one of His orders. And of course they didn’t just say the German Volk, they said the Volk as a category.
That idea spread to a lot of countries in the 19th century – Britain, the United States, scholars have seen this in South Africa as well. So this idea of ‘my people as the chosen people’ you actually see in other Protestant countries in the modern period.

Antisemites in the 19th century looked at Jesus and said 'Well, he doesn't care about the law, he doesn't like the Old Testament, he throws the moneychangers and hagglers out of the temple.’ In John 8:44 he says 'Jews, you are the children of the devil',’ this kind of thing. And so there was a particular kind of intellect in the 19th century who began this idea of the Aryan Christ. And Hitler and almost all Nazis continue this lineage of thought.

the record of the Catholics, who were before 1933 squarely anti-Nazi, they too could be anti-Semitic. Most varieties of Protestantism in Germany gave expression to their anti-Semitism. You could find anti-Semitism within all of these confessions.

When the Soviet Union was invaded, clergymen, Protestant or Catholic, would have sermonized about the crusade against Bolshevism.
They probably would have toned down an explicit anti-Semitism because a lot of churchmen, after the Nazis began to systematically murder the Jews, learned about it and did nothing about it. This is one of the great tragedies of church history in the Third Reich – that to a man or a woman, there was no Christian clergy person who got up on the pulpit and said ‘Guess what I found out last week? The Jews are being exterminated. This is a sin and must stop.’ That never happened. Not one clergy person of either denomination made a similar public declaration vis-à-vis the genocide of the Jews.”
http://www.theturning.org/folder/nazis.html

From one fact alone, noted by Richard Grunberger, and confirmed by numerous historians, it is possible to learn that the Protestant churches remained shrouded in silence while the Nazis were massively tormenting, torturing, imprisoning, deporting, enslaving and killing the Jews.
What conclusions did Erickson reach as to the stance of the three men who would be expected to exemplify the ultimate in the embodiment of those noble values that millions of Sunday school children are taught attach to Christian folk? They are grim:
"They each supported Hitler openly, enthusiastically, and with little restraint." In fact, they deemed it the Christian thing to do. They "saw themselves and were seen by others as genuine Christians acting upon genuine Christian impulses." Furthermore, all three tended "to see God's hand in the elevation of Hitler to power." Hirsch was a member of the Nazi party and of the SS. The Nazi state, he said, should be accepted and supported by Christians as a tool of God's grace.http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hakeem/holocaust5.html
“Churches throughout Europe were mostly silent while Jews were persecuted, deported and murdered. In Nazi Germany in September 1935, there were a few Christians in the Protestant Confessing Church who demanded that their Church take a public stand in defense of the Jews.
These discussions, however, tended to become focused more on secondary strategic considerations -- like maintaining good relations with colleagues in the German Churches -- than on the central humanitarian issues that were really at stake.
Churches throughout the world began to address their failures after 1945. Confessions of guilt have been issued by Catholic Churches in France and Germany, and most major Protestant denominations, beginning with the German Evangelical Church's Stuttgart Declaration of Guilt in August 1945 (three months after the war in Europe ended). The early statements were vague, often referring only to the Churches' general lack of decisiveness in opposing Nazism. More recently, however, the Christian Churches have been far more specific -- recognizing that they not only failed to resist Nazism, but actually helped prepare the way for the mass destruction of Europe's Jews through centuries of proselytization, attacks on Judaism, and tacit or overt support for pogroms and other anti-Jewish violence.
Three main factors shaped the behavior of the Christian Churches during the Nazi reign of terror in Germany and abroad. The first was the theological and doctrinal anti-Judaism that existed in parts of the Christian tradition. (Long before 1933, the anti-Judaism that existed within the Churches -- ranging from latent prejudice to the virulent diatribes of people like Martin Luther -- lent legitimacy to the racial anti-Semitism that emerged in the late nineteenth century.) The second factor was the Churches' historical role in creating "Christendom" -- the Western European culture that, since the era of the Roman emperor Constantine, had been explicitly and deliberately "Christian." The Churches' advocacy of a "Christian culture" led to a "sacralization of cultural identity" (as the theologian Miroslav Volf puts it), in which dominant, positive values were seen as "Christian" ones, while developments viewed negatively (such as secularism and Marxism) were attributed to "Jewish" influences.”
http://www.adl.org/Braun/dim_14_1_role_church_print.asp
 
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yasser

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peaceful soul said:
I think the question is that the expression is said when Muslims do something like kill someone or cause harm to them. I think sometimes that Muslims only see that they are defending their religion and do not see the harm they are doing to others in the process. The association is a negative one since killing someone is not something to be greatful about. The impression left is that it is a great thing in god's eyes that I just killed someone in Allah's name. Do you understand?

what Muslims are you talking about here..Are you talking about bin laden and his armies..they are not muslims..they are mercinaries..they kill and kill without mercy..why every person talk to me consider bin laden as our leader..If you consider bin laden a muslim, i will consider Hitler as a christian and as we all know Hitler has no comparison at all..As a muslim, i look to bin laden and hitler as one person with no religions..their religion is terrorism..Why do you think muslim members in this forum are trying to defend our religion..what is the benefit that we gain in your mind..Whats your point of calling all muslims terrorist..Will you be happy if all of us one day believe you and we becme real terrorist..

I am about tired of the overused and miscontextualized expession of Muslims saying that non-Muslims should get educated or learn real Islam. This implies that everything that is mentioned is false and that everything that comes out of a Muslim's mouth is true.

we are human beings we are sometimes true and sometimes are wrong..We only get mad when people call us terrorists..Do you think everyday when i wake up, i think whom i am going to kill today..be fair to us..we have families..we love to live and have fun..we love our parents and friends..we love christians..really we do..look to the picure of me and my son in my profile..do we look that evil...Why i would harm you..let me know please..did you harm me by any means..why should i be violent against you..

This seems a way to refute what is said and not giving credit that some of us actually do understand many of the things about Islam and are actually persuing understanding, even if we don't agree. There are genuine cases where we are ignorant, but don't think that we are so ignorant and you are sooo... bright

Look one person who was attacking us said that she studied islam for 4 years..I asked her one question..How muslims pray..how many obligatory prayers do we have..are the prayers similar or different..prayer is the second pillar to be a muslim..So i asked her this simple question, just to prove to her that she did not study islam at all..she hears what she hears and read what she read and then come and attack us..Do you honestly that think you can answer those simple questions without going and doing search..If you honestly answer these simple questions, i will be happy to discuss with you any topic because deep inside , iknow that you read about islam to know and not to attack.
 
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Vaneeza Malkah

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MercuryAndy said:
Are muslems not allowed to give or recive hugs... At all?

whenever I greet my muslim (female) friends we kiss eachother on the cheeks two or three times as is a custom (much more friendly than average western society)...like Judaism and perhaps historical christianity, hugging those of the opposite sex outside of close relative is not allowed, in fact handshakes are also not allowed b/n opposite sexes. Not to say that there aren't plenty of muslims who don't follow their religion in these matters.
 
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Catherineanne

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yaqovzadeek. said:
I read that his cronies and him went to church regularly and after church they came bame back and tortured Jews.

Whatever comic you read that in, it is inaccurate. I am personally not aware of any attested example of Hitler attending church, nor of torturing Jews, for that matter. (Not absolving him of responsibility, btw, just of getting his own hands dirty.)

It is far too simplistic to try to present this distorted world view of the past, and expect us to swallow it whole, without any kind of reasoning and consideration of the facts.

If you are going to start a thread about the Holocaust, and about the Nazi regime, then do so. But I suggest you read a bit of attested historical documentation first.

This thread is supposed to be about Moslems not liking hugs. Any chance of getting back to that subject?
 
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Catherineanne

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yasser said:
this is the truth honey..why you are denying it..its the freedom girls want..girls gone wild...Do you know the average sex parteners a female and a male have here in usa before getting married..do you want me to surprise you with the number..if you really want to know i will post the governemental link for this statistics..So please do not throw stones on people when your own house is made of glass.

My house is not made of glass. And my name is not 'Honey'.

I don't give a tinker's cuss for any statistics you may or may not have about sex partners, because I am not obsessed with that particular subject. Apparently, unlike your good self.

Whatver is good, whatever is pure, whatever is holy, think on these things.
 
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Catherineanne

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yaqovzadeek said:
Muslims say Allahu Akbar 5 times a day at many intervals of prayer it is a word that you don't understand

Do you know what? Your judgemental attitude is really getting on my wick.

Don't tell us what we do, and what we do not, understand. Or would you like us to respond in kind and say that your understanding of Christianity could be written on the back of an envelope, and still leave room for a return address?
 
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Catherineanne

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peaceinislam said:
muslim terrorists do not kill in the name of islam.


You see, you made this point, and then you put a great long post explaining why you want it to be true, but the fact remains that the killings are made in the name of Islam, and the people who carry them out believe that they have the apparent approval of their god, that they will become holy martyrs if they die in the process, and go straight to heaven. You cannot then say this is not in the name of Islam. Like much else that we read from Moslems, that is too simplistic.

The very phrase 'Moslem terrorist' should make any true Moslem ashamed to their very core. If anyone ever tried to use the phrase 'Christian terrorist' in my hearing, they would get a very swift rebuke from me, because the very concept is anathema, and contrary to everything I believe, and everything that Our Lord taught.

Imo, there is no such thing as a justified killing. No such thing as righteous violence.

Those Moslems who can say the same for their faith - and I am certain there are many, many millions who can - are my brothers and sisters in faith. Anyone who cannot, has nothing to do with the God I know, and no place pretending to any kind of faith, or any religion. Their only faith is violence, and their only religion the subjugation of other people. And I would say the same for any other person, of any other religion.
 
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peaceful soul

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yasser said:
peaceful soul said:
what Muslims are you talking about here..Are you talking about bin laden and his armies..they are not muslims..they are mercinaries..they kill and kill without mercy..why every person talk to me consider bin laden as our leader..If you consider bin laden a muslim, i will consider Hitler as a christian and as we all know Hitler has no comparison at all..As a muslim, i look to bin laden and hitler as one person with no religions..their religion is terrorism..Why do you think muslim members in this forum are trying to defend our religion..what is the benefit that we gain in your mind..Whats your point of calling all muslims terrorist..Will you be happy if all of us one day believe you and we becme real terrorist..



we are human beings we are sometimes true and sometimes are wrong..We only get mad when people call us terrorists..Do you think everyday when i wake up, i think whom i am going to kill today..be fair to us..we have families..we love to live and have fun..we love our parents and friends..we love christians..really we do..look to the picure of me and my son in my profile..do we look that evil...Why i would harm you..let me know please..did you harm me by any means..why should i be violent against you..



Look one person who was attacking us said that she studied islam for 4 years..I asked her one question..How muslims pray..how many obligatory prayers do we have..are the prayers similar or different..prayer is the second pillar to be a muslim..So i asked her this simple question, just to prove to her that she did not study islam at all..she hears what she hears and read what she read and then come and attack us..Do you honestly that think you can answer those simple questions without going and doing search..If you honestly answer these simple questions, i will be happy to discuss with you any topic because deep inside , iknow that you read about islam to know and not to attack.

May I ask you something? What part of your post actually addresses my complaint and perspective. I was commenting on how "Allah is great" is used when some Muslims kill non-Muslims and how that seems to imply that what they did was for Allah's cause. I did not specify anyone in particular. Your response seems disconnected from what I was trying to get accross. I was actually commenting on what I felt that MercuryAndy was trying to point out.

The rest of your post is irrevelant to what I was trying to convey. Perhaps you did not understand me or I do not communicate well enough for you to understand. So let me try to explain in fewer words to you.

1) Is in not true that practically all Muslims that post here (maybe a couple of exceptions) always point out that no one knows or understands Islam apart from Muslims. This often comes up when non-Muslims - namely Christians - have a point; so, you try to negate it with that overused expression. The main reason that I brought it up is because in the same breath, you ( Muslims ) will tell us 1) how to interpret the Bible and 2) that we are wrong because we don't know true Christianity since we have a distorted belief and practice. Is this not true? Whatever we say is overruled by what you as a Muslim say since you seem to be the only one who actually know anything.:confused::confused:
 
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Catherineanne

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yasser said:
we are human beings we are sometimes true and sometimes are wrong..We only get mad when people call us terrorists.

You may find that in the outside world there is a lot of confusion in people's minds about the difference between a devout Moslem and a radical fanatic who goes over the edge into something else. I personally believe this blurring of the edges is being orchestrated on purpose in order to find a new enemy for the US, now that the Soviet Union is no longer a convenient target.

I think that you do not need to be so defensive on this Forum, however. You are speaking for the most part to people of faith, or at least to people who are exploring issues relating to faith, and we are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Moslems are God fearing, peaceful, and very family centred and loving people, whatever our media and politicians would prefer us to believe. But to retain this view, I need to find such people, not find people who say that Hitler was a Christian, which is patent nonsense, and who say that Moslem terrorists do not kill in the name of Islam, which is also nonsense.

The challenge to us all, I believe, is to condemn wholeheartedly not the other side's bad behaviour, but our own. As with sin, we are called to convict ourselves, not our neighbours. Christians can be safely left to identify and speak out against abuses in Iraq and elsewhere perpetrated by Western people. But why are such condemnations apparently invisible and unheard by Moslems. Are you really oblivious to the words of the former Pope, or the Archbishop of Canterbury, inter alia?

Where I have a problem is that I do not hear the same voices on behalf of Islam, speaking out against the bombing of Mosques, and the interfactional killing. I hear all the blame going to the US for being there, and Moslems are always shown as the victims, to be pitied.

I really need to see far less victim, more speaking out in favour of what is good, and against what is bad. And a lot more honesty about the rotten bits of Islam. Because, for all the attempts to whitewash, they are most certainly there. Just as they are in Christianity, and are being, albeit slowly, dealt with. And in any other faith. Nobody, and no faith, is perfect, this side of eternity.

And a few more hugs might not go amiss.
 
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Catherineanne

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Vaneeza Malkah said:
whenever I greet my muslim (female) friends we kiss eachother on the cheeks two or three times as is a custom (much more friendly than average western society)...like Judaism and perhaps historical christianity, hugging those of the opposite sex outside of close relative is not allowed, in fact handshakes are also not allowed b/n opposite sexes. Not to say that there aren't plenty of muslims who don't follow their religion in these matters.

I enjoyed reading your description, but did you have to include the judgemental comment about the 'average western society', whatever that may be? :confused:

Would it be appropriate for me to talk about the 'average Asian society', lumping Hindu with Moslem, Korean with Chinese, totally ignoring the fact that there is no such thing, and that cultural differences between faiths, countries and even family groups will have a huge impact on behaviour?

Please, can we all try to lose this way of side sniping at other countries, faiths or customs, particularly when we are not familiar with them personally, and are basing our comments on stereotypical views.

Fyi, some cultures like lots of touching, some do not. But neither is a reflection of how friendly such cultures may or may not be.

Further, I have visited a Moslem country not far from your own, and although handshakes are not the common practice, they are not, as you said, 'not allowed.' Many Moslem gentlemen, who knew that Western people shake hands, shook hands with me. So perhaps a moderation of language all round might be useful. Less black and white, more shades of grey.
 
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yasser

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Catherineanne said:
I don't give a tinker's cuss for any statistics you may or may not have about sex partners, because I am not obsessed with that particular subject. Apparently, unlike your good self.

Whatver is good, whatever is pure, whatever is holy, think on these things.

You just gave us a lesson before on not to be judgemental and here you are doing this mistake..

We muslims always think about these thing..whatever is pure whatever is holy..Why do you think we pray five time a day..to have fun..may be..we believe that we are not in heaven..We are not obssessed particular with sex..we are obsessed with diseases of the society..Adultery, alcohol, gambling,child abuse, terrorism,...etc.. if we try to avoid these problems , this will help us to focus on the holy thing you mentioned above..This is our role in life[as we muslims think] is to forbid evil and enjoy good..
 
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Catherineanne

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yasser said:
You just gave us a lesson before on not to be judgemental and here you are doing this mistake..

I am not quite perfect yet. Almost, but not quite. :) Fortunately for me, God understands, even if you seem to find a problem with imperfection.


This is our role in life[as we muslims think] is to forbid evil and enjoy good..


Your role is to forbid evil? :D

Who died and made you God?
 
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yasser

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Catherineanne said:
I am not quite perfect yet. Almost, but not quite. :) Fortunately for me, God understands, even if you seem to find a problem with imperfection.





Your role is to forbid evil? :D

Who died and made you God?

yes my role and the role of any normal person is to forbid evil and enjoy Good.This is not God role..God role is to be worshipped in the proper way and within the boundaries and limits he wants us to be in.This is his role to be worshipped ...

Thats the problem ..you do not want to bother yourself with the problems in your society..you just want to worship god in peace..But wahatever evil is happening around you, you will just keep quiet..Thats why for example homsexuality and gay marriages are now accepted in some states here in usa and in some other countries.. and you do not know whats next.. also..Homosexuality is good or evil in your opinion..
Is that what jesus aimed when he was preaching..Do you think when jesus will come again, he will be happy with all the diseases of the societies that are spreading like light now becAUSE OF NEGATIVE PEOPLE..
 
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Catherineanne

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yasser said:
yes my role and the role of any normal person is to forbid evil and enjoy Good.This is not God role..God role is to be worshipped in the proper way and within the boundaries and limits he wants us to be in.This is his role to be worshipped ...

Thats the problem ..you do not want to bother yourself with the problems in your society..you just want to worship god in peace..But wahatever evil is happening around you, you will just keep quiet..Thats why for example homsexuality and gay marriages are now accepted in some states here in usa and in some other countries.. and you do not know whats next.. also..Homosexuality is good or evil in your opinion..
Is that what jesus aimed when he was preaching..Do you think when jesus will come again, he will be happy with all the diseases of the societies that are spreading like light now becAUSE OF NEGATIVE PEOPLE..


Ooooh, you must be God. You certainly seem to know a huge amount about me.

Oh, hang on, it is all a load of codswallop. That means that you are not God after all, just another rabid Moslem. Or is that tautology, after all? Hmm ...

:sleep:
 
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MercuryAndy

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I love him muslems can justify anything they do by saying its alirte im a muslem.

You called this person a ****** that is unacceptable in this country.

no its alirite i am a muslem and in my religion there is no difference between white and black.

i saw it on airport on uktv people but i realy couldnt help laughing at this guy which was probubly a bad thing.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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.Do you think when jesus will come again, he will be happy with all the diseases of the societies that are spreading like light now becAUSE OF NEGATIVE PEOPLE..
Yes, it won't be a pretty sight when He "returns". Repent before it is too late!!! :)

zeph 1:14 The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. 15 That day [is] a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, ..[SIZE=+2] [/SIZE] 17 "I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the LORD; Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse." .18 Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the LORD's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.
 
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yasser

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MercuryAndy said:
I love him muslems can justify anything they do by saying its alirte im a muslem.

You called this person a ****** that is unacceptable in this country.

no its alirite i am a muslem and in my religion there is no difference between white and black.

i saw it on airport on uktv people but i realy couldnt help laughing at this guy which was probubly a bad thing.

Do you speak english or these are typos..i cant understand your post
 
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