How would you react?

[belladonic-haze]

Hmm, I asked this question in another thread, but I think it would provide a good ethics and morality question. Of course I imagine the eyes of some of you rolling: "Here she goes again," but I do not care. It's an important issue to me. I hope that even one man or woman gets another look at this matter because like the Talmud says: "Save a life and you save the world"

A teengirl (17) is raped. She knows the guy, it was her date. You know the girl. She goes to the police but the perp. is set free because there is not enough evidence and the girl was already sexual active. How would you react to the girl?

Some examples of reactions that are real to me and some other survivors:

"Well, she was drinking..."

"I myself have had people throw rocks at me, call me prostitute, call me trash, refuse to wait on me... the list just goes on."

"I think that what I need to deal with now is the feelings of betrayal I have for women in general. Why didn't the girls in my class stand up for me when I was being tormented by my classmates? Why do women dismiss rape victims as "whiney" or tell their survivor friends to "get over it?"."

"Did you let him rape you so you could sue him?"

"You didnt fight back hard enough so you must have wanted it"

"So was this just something that started off as kissing and then got out of hand or was it that now you feel guilty because you slept with that man?"

 

[kopilo]

"Why are people so unkind".

Followed by a handing of a restraint order form to the victim.

 

[belladonic-haze]

"Why are people so unkind".

Followed by a handing of a restraint order form to the victim.

If that would help. The thing is when you know your perp, you are confronted with him all the time. School, grocery store, street....even if it's 100 yards...you cannot avoid seeing the perp once in a while.

[deleted]

Yes, people can be very unkind. "Lighten up" or "Get over it" would be done in a split second if it were possible.

 

[ebia]

If I could offer any support to her, in any way, I would do my best. I'm disappointed (I wish I could say shocked) to find anyone would react in the ways you describe. On the other hand, I'm not at all sure I would have the faintest idea how to help. Difficult situations aren't generally well served by simple answers.

 

[belladonic-haze]

If I could offer any support to her, in any way, I would do my best. I'm disappointed (I wish I could say shocked) to find anyone would react in the ways you describe.

Well, those things I wrote down are the least shocking. Some of the remarks make me sick!

 

[tocis]

How would you react to the girl?

Supportive. How, and to what extent, depends on the specific situation.

Granted that in some cases the victim didn't exactly do everything right... but even intentional playing with your date a la "make him hot, then tell him to get lost just for the fun of being cruel" (hey, it happens every now and then...) is no justification for rape. Period.

And the question of whether the victim did indeed make some mistake, if it needs to be asked, can be asked when the poor girl is through her acute trauma. One after another.

(I expect some flak for this posting. Note that I do not in any situation condone or excuse rape. All I say is that there are times when "she" isn't exactly innocent when the situation between "her" and "him" ends disastrous. Making such a thing work is always the responsibility of all involved persons.
It's often convenient, and in some circles "in", to blame the male for all that goes wrong. Sadly, it's wrong more than rarely.)

 

[quatona]

Hmm, I asked this question in another thread, but I think it would provide a good ethics and morality question. Of course I imagine the eyes of some of you rolling: "Here she goes again," but I do not care. It's an important issue to me. I hope that even one man or woman gets another look at this matter because like the Talmud says: "Save a life and you save the world"

A teengirl (17) is raped. She knows the guy, it was her date. You know the girl. She goes to the police but the perp. is set free because there is not enough evidence and the girl was already sexual active. How would you react to the girl?

I think that highly depends on our relationship and the purpose for which she tells me all this. My reaction as a friend would be a different one than as her, say, lawyer or psychologist.

 

[gwenmead]

Be as supportive as possible. Damage control first, healing second. If I could I'd get her to some serious therapy, because she's gonna need it. If necessary I might even help her move away from the situation, if she felt it was warranted.

People say appalling things to abuse and rape survivors. It's inexcusable. I've never understood it.

I might point out that if it later comes out that she was lying about the whole thing, I'd be as hard on her about that as I initially was supportive. Not in a shaming or vilifying way, but in a "how could you lie about this; take some responsibility for your actions, dammit!" way.

Rape is bad enough, the backlash people give rape survivors is bad enough... it doesn't help any when someone lies about it. It just makes survivors look unbelievable, which isn't what any rape survivor needs.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

CF has other forums that might be more beneficial in discussing this sort of topic if it isn't a discussion/debate of E&M.

http://www.christianforums.com/f557-survivors-of-sexual-assault.html

ETA: That was a suggestion for the benefit to those that have this cross to bear in their life, not a MOD HAT.

 

[belladonic-haze]

CF has other forums that might be more beneficial in discussing this sort of topic if it isn't a discussion/debate of E&M.

http://www.christianforums.com/f557-survivors-of-sexual-assault.html

I do believe it's about ethics and morality. It doesn't only concern survivors of assault. How ethical is a psychiatrist that says "If you didn't say no clearly enough how would you know he raped you?" How moral is it to set the perp free because the teenager is sexual active or even promiscuous? It has to do with ethics and morality.

Do you knw how many people say: Well, she dressed or acted so and so.....so she asked for it. There isn't a debate yet, but believe me.......there are people enough in this world that react like this. I believe it is a moral obligation to ban out suchs black and white viewpoints.....

Only 2% of the reported rapes are false...and only 1 in 10 rapes is reported.....also because of these so-called moral survivor bashings...It's against the law, by the way....it is a form of discrmination to treat a victim like this.

 

[Norseman]

It depends. If I know the girl to be truthful, and to not exaggerate or lie, then I might speak with some other friends of hers to see if they can either find fault with my assessment, or justifiy it. I would also speak with people who are not friends of hers, but at least know her. If she's manipulative, lies, etc., then evidence will be needed. After I've researched her, I would speak with people who knew the guy, and see if I can find out what kind of person he is. If he's had a history of mistreating women, or any sort of criminal record, I would try to bring that up. His truthfulness doesn't matter. He might normally be very truthful, but when it comes to jail time he can't be expected to testify against himself. On the other hand, if he's a known liar, then that would be something to bring up.

If I justify my belief that she is truthful and that he is not a good person, I would attempt to get a large pool of witnesses to testify to that. If I find that the opposite is true, I would try to get witnesses to testify to that. If the results are inconclusive, then evidence will be necessary to bring a case against the guy.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I do believe it's about ethics and morality. It doesn't only concern survivors of assault. How ethical is a psychiatrist that says "If you didn't say no clearly enough how would you know he raped you?" How moral is it to set the perp free because the teenager is sexual active or even promiscuous? It has to do with ethics and morality.

Yes, the topic of rape is a E&M topic.
I did not say that it wasn't.

Do you knw how many people say: Well, she dressed or acted so and so.....so she asked for it. There isn't a debate yet, but believe me.......there are people enough in this world that react like this. I believe it is a moral obligation to ban out suchs black and white viewpoints.....

A moral obligation to ban other viewpoints?

Hmm...

Do you mean if someone mentions that we have our own obligations in accountability?

Regardless how tragic the ultimate outcome may have been or how it may have been compounded by another's actions, it doesn't dismiss our own actions. That isn't a principle that is exclusive to one topic either. There are lessons to be learned from both party's actions and reactions.

Only 2% of the reported rapes are false...and only 1 in 10 rapes is reported.....also because of these so-called moral survivor bashings...It's against the law, by the way....it is a form of discrmination to treat a victim like this.

Would that law also include if the victim placed their self up as bait to fish for certain viewpoints in order to harass them? I ask, because it would seem that there would be limits to exactly how far a law like that would reach.

 

[belladonic-haze]

Yes, the topic of rape is a E&M topic.
I did not say that it wasn't.
A moral obligation to ban other viewpoints?

Hmm...

Do you mean if someone mentions that we have our own obligations in accountability?

Regardless how tragic the ultimate outcome may have been or how it may have been compounded by another's actions, it doesn't dismiss our own actions. That isn't a principle that is exclusive to one topic either. There are lessons to be learned from both party's actions and reactions.

Well, I am quite bias on this subject....but I know people refuse to see it differently. I do not want to change the whole view on life.....but I do want to show people the severity of their remarks. People commit suicide because of the shame and guilt it causes. That is reason enough for me to try and do something about it...

Would that law also include if the victim placed their self up as bait to fish for certain viewpoints in order to harass them? I ask, because it would seem that there would be limits to exactly how far a law like that would reach.

No-one does that. It is a wrong idea that victims do that......if onely 2 % of the reports are false and 1 in 10 rapes...so about 10% is reported....then only 0,2% is reported false of all the rapes....and those who do not report the rape are filled with shame, guilt and wonder what had happened, because the perp was a friend or a date....

Rape by an Acquaintance is hard to proof....

 

[kopilo]

Even if someone is a known lier, try not to dismiss them in every case because of their past history.
Like the boy who cried wolf, when everyone stopped listening to him a wolf did come.

We must treat every event with the same standard of integrity as the next.

 

[quatona]

belladonic-haze, I agree with CC in that this might be the wrong forum for such a question to ask.
It challenges us to engage in an objective ethical discussion, and at the same time we have to consider the fact that we are speaking to a victim who still has deep emotional wounds. These two purposes don´t go together well, in my experience.
I will try it anyways, taking the risk to be thoroughly misunderstood, but not without firstly assuring you of my deep empathy for you in your situation.

How ethical is a psychiatrist that says "If you didn't say no clearly enough how would you know he raped you?"

From this information given I do not see anything unethical about this question (I was just wondering whether a question can be unethical, anyways). A psychotherapist is not concerned with guilt or blame. His job is to show the client who has run into problems where his/her parts are in this problem, and what the reasons are for that.
That said, a psychoanalyst should know that a rape victim is occupied with thoughts of blame and guilt and tends to interprete statements that way; thus it can be discussed whether his question was sufficiently carefully and thoughtfully put.

How moral is it to set the perp free because the teenager is sexual active or even promiscuous?

This is more a legal problem, I think. It is obvious that a private situation of two persons gives not much space for investigating the "truth". In order to convict someone for something it is necessary to clearly show his guilt. I am assuming that you don´t want a person punished for something he didn´t do. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to solve this problem. What suggestions do you have to solve it?

Do you knw how many people say: Well, she dressed or acted so and so.....so she asked for it. There isn't a debate yet, but believe me.......there are people enough in this world that react like this. I believe it is a moral obligation to ban out suchs black and white viewpoints.....

Such statements are nonsense, and this needs to be pointed out. The underlying notion may not be tolerated and have to be contradicted strongly - with reason.

Only 2% of the reported rapes are false...and only 1 in 10 rapes is reported.....also because of these so-called moral survivor bashings...It's against the law, by the way....it is a form of discrmination to treat a victim like this.

Statistics aren´t much of a comfort - neither for a rape victim whose story isn´t believed, nor for a man who gets punished for a rape he didn´t commit.

Just yesterday I saw a cheesy movie with the old and oh so touching motif:
The two protagonists on the beach, alone for the first time. He is obviously going for physical contact, kisses and all. She keeps saying "No, I don´t want that. No, it´s not right. No, I don´t love you." until she finally sinks in his arms and they have passionate sex (and lived happily ever after).

As long as this behaviour is, by the media and upbringing, implied and suggested to be perfectly normal (if women say "no", they actually mean "yes", it´s just a necessary and thrilling part of the coupling ritual and a challenge to become more active), we will time and again encounter severe problems in this field.

 

[sparklecat]

I'd be as supportive as I could. I was going to go the same way as Norseman, and say that I'd want to do what I could to see if I believed her or not, but on second thought, that's not what I'd do. She'll likely already be having the sorts of reactions you described, and if there's the slightest chance she's telling the truth, she needs people to stand by and support her. Not to judge her or decide they know more about the situation than she does.

Whatever I could do to help, I would. I'd imagine it would be very scary for her to know that the rapist is still walking around free.

 

[Norseman]

Even if someone is a known lier, try not to dismiss them in every case because of their past history.
Like the boy who cried wolf, when everyone stopped listening to him a wolf did come.

We must treat every event with the same standard of integrity as the next.

You should never dismiss liars entirely. But you can't punish someone else simply because a liar says they are guilty of something. There needs to be more evidence than that if the accuser isn't trustworthy.

 

[non-religious]

[belladonic-haze;27605074]
A teengirl (17) is raped. She knows the guy, it was her date. You know the girl. She goes to the police but the perp. is set free because there is not enough evidence and the girl was already sexual active. How would you react to the girl?

There will always be ignorant people who respond to these things in incredibly ignorant ways, that's life. I would obviously offer as much support as needed.

Without wanting to move the debate, I would make the point that over here in the UK we have had an alarming increase in false rape accusations and they are equally devastating because the alleged rape victim (wrongly or rightly) is never named and the accuser is. So whilst an innocent man has his name and in some instances his freedom completely taken form him, the woman who maliciously accused him of a false horrible crime goes about her life and is never named for what she has done. If a woman has been raped then it's up to the police to do their job and do it properly. Some women, infact many victims of rape have been incredibly brave and even astute both during and after the event. They remember important details about the rapist and put themselves through a very traumatic court hearing. It's a shame more women don't report it and even more disheartening is the reality that the judicial system fails the victim and her family.

 

[kopilo]

You should never dismiss liars entirely. But you can't punish someone else simply because a liar says they are guilty of something. There needs to be more evidence than that if the accuser isn't trustworthy.

Of course word of mouth isn't any real evidence.

 

[belladonic-haze]

belladonic-haze, I agree with CC in that this might be the wrong forum for such a question to ask.
It challenges us to engage in an objective ethical discussion, and at the same time we have to consider the fact that we are speaking to a victim who still has deep emotional wounds. These two purposes don´t go together well, in my experience.
I will try it anyways, taking the risk to be thoroughly misunderstood, but not without firstly assuring you of my deep empathy for you in your situation.

From this information given I do not see anything unethical about this question (I was just wondering whether a question can be unethical, anyways). A psychotherapist is not concerned with guilt or blame. His job is to show the client who has run into problems where his/her parts are in this problem, and what the reasons are for that.
That said, a psychoanalyst should know that a rape victim is occupied with thoughts of blame and guilt and tends to interprete statements that way; thus it can be discussed whether his question was sufficiently carefully and thoughtfully put.

Depends on how it is asked.....and I can say from personal experience that he meant it. I was smothered...he knew that....what kind of question is that? So, No...it wasn't something that was a right question. I walked out of his office to never return....

My therapist confronts me often....but not like that.

This is more a legal problem, I think. It is obvious that a private situation of two persons gives not much space for investigating the "truth". In order to convict someone for something it is necessary to clearly show his guilt. I am assuming that you don´t want a person punished for something he didn´t do. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to solve this problem. What suggestions do you have to solve it?


Such statements are nonsense, and this needs to be pointed out. The underlying notion may not be tolerated and have to be contradicted strongly - with reason.

Statistics aren´t much of a comfort - neither for a rape victim whose story isn´t believed, nor for a man who gets punished for a rape he didn´t commit.

FBI statistics are fairly reliable....although people aren't statitics and in most false reports the so-called victim is caught during interogations. 2 false reports out of 1000 seems not likely to be something that happens often. But I am concerned about the morals of sexuality.... Many victims become the abuser in court. Especially when the woman has a history of being 'easy' promiscuous....... Suddenly her 'lack of morals' start to count and she had it coming.

Just yesterday I saw a cheesy movie with the old and oh so touching motif:
The two protagonists on the beach, alone for the first time. He is obviously going for physical contact, kisses and all. She keeps saying "No, I don´t want that. No, it´s not right. No, I don´t love you." until she finally sinks in his arms and they have passionate sex (and lived happily ever after).

As long as this behaviour is, by the media and upbringing, implied and suggested to be perfectly normal (if women say "no", they actually mean "yes", it´s just a necessary and thrilling part of the coupling ritual and a challenge to become more active), we will time and again encounter severe problems in this field.

I agree with you. No means no, but movies and telly tells us differently......It really really makes me angry when I see such false view of the reality.