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Jok

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Either a bishop, Patriarch, Pope, Ecumenical Patriarch. How would you greet that person? With a kiss, reverence?
I would take pleasure in greeting them just like they were an average person. I feel the same way with celebrities, I would absolutely love to be on an elevator with some insanely famous person like Ben Affleck, , glance up, give him a half hearted “Hey Ben” and then go back to looking at my phone.

I can’t say nothing or else he might just think I was just intimidated lol
 
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Paidiske

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I'm glad you do, because this would confusing to me. 'Mother' is only used for abbesses (either Tamav, which is Coptic, or Amma, which is Arabic) or some historical female ascetics in my Church, so if I were to call you Mother, it would sound like I was referring to one of the Desert Mothers, like St. Syncletica, St. Sarah, etc.

In our case, I think it's an extension of calling male priests "father." When women started to be ordained priests, clearly "Father" wouldn't do, so the logical term in its place was mother.

I do find that many people unfamiliar with ordained women either get confused or assume I'm a nun. I always tell them I'm not obedient enough for that! ^_^

I'm not sure what to make of these posts from our Protestant friends like Genez and others. They don't seem to make a lot of sense. I asked about St. Peter's use of elevated language and got a response about not calling anyone "Father", even though that's not present in any of the salutations (though he does call Timothy "a beloved son"...hmmmmmm... :scratch:).

So what is there to say about that? I think we're having different conversations by this point.

I think the problem is that the NT evidence is scant. So if you bring to your reading an experience of a very hierarchical church, or a set of assumptions about life in NT times being a very highly socially stratified affair, then you're more likely to read hierarchy, titles, respect etc into the NT evidence. But if you bring an experience of a very informal church, or one with a very flat leadership structure, or a set of assumptions about the early church in which everyone was seen as very equal, then you're more likely to read that into the NT evidence.

My own hunch - as an aspiring patristic scholar who has a bit of familiarity with not just the NT but other very early church documents - is that modern Western Christians tend to underestimate the degree of formality and hierarchy in play in even the very early church. Hierarchy and formality was how everything in that society functioned, and I don't believe even the church escaped it, even during the period when highly charismatic expressions also flourished.

But that's just my take, and I'm in a hierarchical church (although I would note that we have modified our governance structures to be more participatory, even for lay people, and see that as a healthy thing), so... perhaps that's just evidence of my biases, too. :sorry:

You are missing my point. Most in positions of authority are weak in their understanding. If they were not? They would not hide tucked away in a denomination.

I've left most of what you've said unanswered, because it's largely so vague as to be unanswerable. But this idea that choosing to minister within a denomination is to "hide tucked away" is not at all in line with my experience. You become more visible because of - for want of a better word - denominational "branding." To minister within a denomination is to be identified with that denomination and carry all its "baggage" with you wherever you go. By contrast, to choose to minister in an independent congregation means that you are largely unknown and invisible.

There are benefits and drawbacks to the visibility of a denominational identity; in my experience, one of the benefits is that complete strangers will approach me when out and about, seek practical help, want to talk about faith, ask to be prayed for/with. It opens doors to conversations that otherwise would not happen, because in ministry, visibility = availability. And the denomination and all that goes with it - the collar, the title, the role - helps make me visible, and thus available, to my local community in a way that I couldn't be without any of that.

It's the exact opposite of hiding away.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Jesus taught the following in Mat 23:9, when speaking in regards to titles used of men...


And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’
for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."


How many believe the Word of God?

Jesus could not have made it any simpler. Just like the Lord's command to Adam not to eat of the wrong tree. Very simple to understand.

Its willful denial and belligerence when someone claims to be an expert in teaching the Bible.. and what they teach defies such a command. And, even make an effort to acquire apologists to explain away their error.

Its shameful.

Very few are genuine teachers of God's Word. Many may teach 'from' it, only to exploit it to their desired outcome. A few get it right. Likewise.. Jesus said: Few will find it.

A very common misinterpretation of a verse. You'll notice the Apostle Paul refers to himself as Timothy's Spiritual Father, and Christ calls the Apostles Fathers.

This verse was a very specific rebukement against the Jews who called Abraham Father and thought that they didn't need a messiah because they had Abraham as their Father. If you look throughout the NT you will see the Jews responding to Christ's teachings with "But we have Abraham as our Father". Christ as usual uses exaggeration to commit a point. Otherwise you might want to start cutting out your eyes and off your hands.

Christ also says "call no man teacher" yet I've never seen any evangelical/non-denom protest against that title.
 
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W2L

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You would be surprised how many evangelicals don't understand that and place text as the most important thing
I value scripture because mans doctrine and traditions are questionable. Don't denominations reject the doctrine of other denominations? If so, Why cant I do the same?
 
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☦Marius☦

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Actually it was Paul, forgive me:

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet ye have not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel.

That at least was the verse I for some reason thought was in the Gospels.
 
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☦Marius☦

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You are missing my point. Most in positions of authority are weak in their understanding. If they were not? They would not hide tucked away in a denomination.

When the Word of God is accurately taught... and, received by believers filled with the Spirit? No denomination exists. Its simply a local church with Christ as its head.

The reason denominations exist is because of religious people worshiping tradition, and rebuffing any correction that might come its way. The love for the traditions of men is the culprit.

Hebrews 12:17
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."
 
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GenemZ

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We can still post here? Are you pretending to be a moderator? Are you a moderator???
 
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☦Marius☦

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We can still post here? Are you pretending to be a moderator? Are you a moderator???
Yes you can still post, no he is not a moderator, and no he wasn't pretending to be one.

I think he was trying to imitate a "mic drop" so to speak. Many people think the Church Fathers (the men who studied directly under the apostles, wrote many epistles, helped found the Catholic Church and were martyred for that) are the final authority on questions such as this.

He was essentially saying the topic didn't need any editions because the Fathers had been quoted. At least that's what I gathered, he can feel free to correct me.
 
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GenemZ

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I've left most of what you've said unanswered, because it's largely so vague as to be unanswerable. But this idea that choosing to minister within a denomination is to "hide tucked away" is not at all in line with my experience. You become more visible because of - for want of a better word - denominational "branding." To minister within a denomination is to be identified with that denomination and carry all its "baggage" with you wherever you go. By contrast, to choose to minister in an independent congregation means that you are largely unknown and invisible.


Hide away in the sense he does not have to do his own thinking. Things have been predetermined for him. He can not challenge them, nor be really challenged by another for what has been set in his denomination's stone. He does not have to think when challenged ... just vomit back the talking points of his denomination.

For anyone trying to challenge him with Scripture? Will only receive back the denominations talking points. "Form letter, answers." He's hiding from having to do his own thinking.
 
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PloverWing

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I think the problem is that the NT evidence is scant. So if you bring to your reading an experience of a very hierarchical church, or a set of assumptions about life in NT times being a very highly socially stratified affair, then you're more likely to read hierarchy, titles, respect etc into the NT evidence. But if you bring an experience of a very informal church, or one with a very flat leadership structure, or a set of assumptions about the early church in which everyone was seen as very equal, then you're more likely to read that into the NT evidence.

I think this is a lot of what's been going on in this discussion. We're coming to this from different cultures, as well as different church cultures, and I think I'm hearing some culture clash in our exchanges. American culture doesn't have a lot of hierarchy to it. We tend to address each other by first name, often even if it's the first time we've met each other. Our idea of formality is to say "Ms Smith" or "Mr Jones", instead of "Jane" or "Bob". So to the eyes of many Americans, something like genuflecting in front of a bishop is very foreign, an artificial, over-the-top gesture, because it's not something we ever do in any other context.

But if I imagine myself in, say, medieval Europe, where everyone saw themselves within a complex social ranking, and of course you would kneel or bow to the lords and ladies and other people who outranked you, then it would be quite natural to do similar honors to high-ranking church leaders.

I'm not a historian, so I won't try to make too many guesses about NT culture. I suspect you're right, though, Paidiske, about the presence of hierarchy in that culture. For example, it would make sense of the otherwise-puzzling Pauline passages in which St Paul has lists of who should obey whom; if the hierarchy of obedience is something St Paul is just taking for granted, then what he's really doing is giving people advice about how to live virtuously within the hierarchy that everyone was part of.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Hide away in the sense he does not have to do his own thinking. Things have been predetermined for him. He can not challenge them, nor be really challenged by another for what has been set in his denomination's stone. He does not have to think when challenged ... just vomit back the talking points of his denomination.

For anyone trying to challenge him with Scripture? Will only receive back the denominations talking points. "Form letter, answers." He's hiding from having to do his own thinking.

Since when is "free thinking" anything but post enlightenment secularism? You think the Jews had "free thinking"? How did Paul respond to the "free thinkers" within the NT Church? He rebuked them and told them to listen to the elders.

Some people value the words of those more educated then themselves, and more authoritative. That is called humility. I don't know where Christians suddenly got the idea that the corrupt human mind could perfectly self interpret scripture. Saying "The Holy Spirit interprets it for me" doesn't help either as that would mean the Holy Spirit has a multiple personality disorder as every street preacher has a personal interpretation directly from the HS, all different.

No, what the apostles set up was a system of councils. They put their belief in the unity of the body of Christ (the Catholicism of it) and all the apostles submitted to the authority of what was decided at the first council of Jerusalem. Since then that is how such issues have been decided.

There is nothing holy about "free thought". It's what got man into trouble in the first place. Anything else is simply pride.
 
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Paidiske

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Hide away in the sense he does not have to do his own thinking. Things have been predetermined for him. He can not challenge them, nor be really challenged by another for what has been set in his denomination's stone. He does not have to think when challenged ... just vomit back the talking points of his denomination.

For anyone trying to challenge him with Scripture? Will only receive back the denominations talking points. "Form letter, answers." He's hiding from having to do his own thinking.

This is really laughably out of touch with the reality of the life of clergy.

The vast majority of what I deal with is not in any way "predetermined" for me. There are some boundaries, true, within which I agree to operate; but I still have a large degree of latitude within those boundaries.

And I have plenty of thinking, and plenty of challenges, which cannot be responded to by vomiting back "talking points."
 
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GenemZ

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Yes you can still post, no he is not a moderator, and no he wasn't pretending to be one.

I think he was trying to imitate a "mic drop" so to speak. Many people think the Church Fathers (the men who studied directly under the apostles, wrote many epistles, helped found the Catholic Church and were martyred for that) are the final authority on questions such as this.

He was essentially saying the topic didn't need any editions because the Fathers had been quoted. At least that's what I gathered, he can feel free to correct me.

No one is arguing with the church fathers as far as I can tell. Trouble is ...Its like the following. Can America lay claim to its own justification today because they can quote Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, etc?
 
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☦Marius☦

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No one is arguing with the church fathers as far as I can tell. Trouble is ...Its like the following. Can America lay claim to its own justification today because they can quote Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, etc?

You're not? So you accept absolute authority of Bishops?

What about communion being the flesh and blood of Christ?

What about Church councils?

What about dealing with heresy?

What about the concept of one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?


Also people clearly are going against the fathers if they are claiming Bishops don't have authority, aren't worthy of respect, etc
 
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☦Marius☦

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This is really laughably out of touch with the reality of the life of clergy.

The vast majority of what I deal with is not in any way "predetermined" for me. There are some boundaries, true, within which I agree to operate; but I still have a large degree of latitude within those boundaries.

And I have plenty of thinking, and plenty of challenges, which cannot be responded to by vomiting back "talking points."

As if Non-denoms aren't really a standard group themselves with their own talking points. ;)
 
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GenemZ

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You're not? So you accept absolute authority of Bishops?

What about communion being the flesh and blood of Christ?

What about Church councils?

What about dealing with heresy?

What about the concept of one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?


Also people clearly are going against the fathers if they are claiming Bishops don't have authority, aren't worthy of respect, etc

What about the Wright Brothers? I am trying to fly a jet fighter and you are still wanting to live by their precepts that have been advanced upon... Not contradicted. Advanced upon.

The body of Christ did not stop growing and learning 1000 years ago. For those who are filled with the Spirit (not to be confused with what is called charismatics today) have been advancing in knowledge and understanding. Just like a person advances in his own life and does not quote his first grade teacher for all he must know today.

Religion worships images. Images of the past that were only foundational, not the final step in knowledge and understanding. Muslims have done that. They live locked in what was in the past and become stuck in a time warp in their thinking. Religion.
 
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dzheremi

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What about the Wright Brothers? I am trying to fly a jet fighter and you are still wanting to live by their precepts that have been advanced upon... Not contradicted. Advanced upon.

Christ told His holy apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. Then exactly that happened in 33 AD on the day of Pentecost.

The body of Christ did not stop growing and learning 1000 years ago. For those who are filled with the Spirit have been advancing.

Do you know why the Church is called "the body of Christ" in the first place? Because it has Christ as its head. So please do tell us what Christ has had to learn and advance in these past 1,000 or 1,600 or whatever number of years.

Just like a person advances and does not quote his first grade teacher for all he must know today.

Maybe they ought to if they're still not understanding what happened 1,986 years ago.
 
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GenemZ

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Christ told His holy apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. Then exactly that happened in 33 AD on the day of Pentecost.

It did not stop with the apostles. That is where you miss out on what the Christian way of life is to be about. The Apostles supplied our foundational Scriptures that are chock full of building materials. Gold, silver, and precious stones for constructing thoughts and concepts needed by growing and conquering believers in an ever changing world.

Uranium was buried in the earth since its creation. But only in recent years has man discovered its value and power. Likewise, God has buried in the Scriptures knowledge that has yet to be dug out and understood. Not before its time as He planned it to be revealed and understood. Just like after the resurrection. Then prophesy of OT Scripture just began to be understood in it fulfillment. It had been there before, but not understood! Likewise.. God unfolds the insights by means of His Spirit working in men when they are called for to push back upon evil that is also trying to advance!

Paul knew that what was to be known in Scripture did not stop with the Apostles.


And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight."
(Philpns 1:9​


Insight goes beyond what had been understood before the insight was given!

Religion stifles minds that still live and think as museum curators. The past great thinkers were raised up for what was needed in their day. We still keep their foundational understanding to build upon. But we are to build! Not stand still! Growing and maturing mentally! The body of Christ is a GROWING organism!

Satan would love if he could lock believers into a set time and never changing. That way he could control the earth by making sure no one rocks the boat of that religious organization. He tried once to do that by burning advancing believers on the stake. Of course, he threw in a few crazies to make the genuine appear guilty by association.

Its just like we see with corrupt politics today. Its the Kingdom of God vs the kingdom of the god of this world. One can not stop and stand still in warfare! Otherwise, some will still be fighting with once proven bows and arrows while they find a smart bomb missile being dropped on them.

Religion is rigid and stagnant. Tradition-centric. Christianity is to be lived in the Spirit while learning truth to be made alive and powerful. There must be truth taught to be understood to keep free in an ever advancing type of evil that constantly mutates like a deadly virus.

Bible teachers of the highest order provide what is needed. Religion can not provide excellent Bible teachers. Only history lessons. For, religion does not comprehend excellent Bible teaching. Just like the religious ones could not comprehend the Word made flesh. They rejected the Living Christ.



And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight.
(Philpns 1:9​


.
 
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