How we are saved...

[lmd0137]

I am having a problem with this one. I understand that we are all inherently sinners and that Jesus died to atone for the sins of mankind. Where my problem or I should say problems come in is who is saved. Here are my issues:

1) What happens to infants who die? Because infants are innocent they have not yet had a chance to sin. Are they saved even though they have not had a chance to have faith??

2) I have trouble believing that some people will not pass judgment merely because they tried to have faith and get to heaven but did it the wrong way. If the intent is right and people are trying with the best of their knowledge to live their lives the way they should, but still somehow were misguided does that damn them to hell??

3) I know some people who have truly good hearts, they love and care for others and believe in God, but that is the extent of it, they have never even read The Bible. Can they be saved?? Or will they only be saved if someone can convince them to become Christians and follow The Bible??

4) I truly see the good in mankind. Yes there is evil and there is sin. But I love people. It is hard for me to believe that most of us are damned unless we have certain beliefs. What about the people who have never been taught of Jesus and of God, but are truly good-hearted people?? What about the kind and caring non-believers?? What about those who have been raised to not know or understand God or religion?? Are children damned because their parents teach them wrong ??

5) Many of my loved ones would be damned by the standards I see given by Christian belief, but they have truly good hearts and are just misguided. I have a hard time believing that are all doomed and headed for hell. Is there no chance that they will be saved and accepted by God??

I am sorry I know it is a long post, but if you could help by answering a few of the questions I think it may help clarify some things. I am trying very hard to put my mind at ease about this. Thank you.

 

[ebia]

The question is misframed by seeing it in terms of individuals and arbitrary reward unconnected with creation itself.


The bible doesn't start with individuals, it starts with people, and the goal is not "going to heaven when we die" but restoring creation.

We are all - collectively, corrupted by idolatory and sin and all need to be put right so that we and all creation can be redeemed and restored. Each person can only be considered within that broader framework.

 

[oi_antz]

We are all - collectively, corrupted by idolatory and sin and all need to be put right so that we and all creation can be redeemed and restored.

This is a very acute comment, certainly if you read it a few times it will sink in

So the whole process of life is to give each human some opportunity to grow into the likeness of Christ, that one by one the creation becomes less damaged by the sin.

Every single person (that means you me and them) has to begin our relationship with the Lord one day, and it's an extremely personal matter, but it's significance is overwhelming and the whole of heaven rejoices because for each person who converts to Jesus, they bring the light of God to displace the darkness of sin in their lives.

We are taught that if you fail to accept Jesus while you have the body, the spirit is never born into His kingdom and forever you will wish you could know Him - there's a name for this sort of theory, it's about being expelled from the presence of God because you never invited Him into your heart.

That flows right into your infant question: does their soul go to heaven, hell or reincarnation? It's a really nice question to ask, I believe the best person to trust is Jesus, that the same toddler could be granted his life in an alternative reality that he would have the opportunity to be saved. I don't think any possibility is too much for our Lord and creator.

2) I have trouble believing that some people will not pass judgment merely because they tried to have faith and get to heaven but did it the wrong way. If the intent is right and people are trying with the best of their knowledge to live their lives the way they should, but still somehow were misguided does that damn them to hell??

It is a simple matter of whether you believe Jesus is the son of God. Anything beyond that, social morals etc is baggage. So given the right set of facts any person would know yes God is real, yes the Bible is the word of God and yes Jesus is His son who has been with Him since long before time. Any person living a half-drunken life would discover this if they went searching honestly, but there's still a serpent in the world who leads it astray, it's main weapon is greed for physical delights, and this is why most of your non-believer friends will resist your message because there is something not-so-holy that they know deep deep inside they can't yet surrender. That's the pride of the hardened heart.

3) I know some people who have truly good hearts, they love and care for others and believe in God, but that is the extent of it, they have never even read The Bible. Can they be saved?? Or will they only be saved if someone can convince them to become Christians and follow The Bible??

Well when you come to hear the gospel message, you have two options: believe in Christ or believe in antiChrist. Most people will either open their hearts to Jesus, or their hearts will become "hardened". When this happens, there is sometimes war over the person's soul and the one who is evangelising may have to confront some evil spirit. Maybe it's getting too off-topic.

4) I truly see the good in mankind. Yes there is evil and there is sin. But I love people. It is hard for me to believe that most of us are damned unless we have certain beliefs. What about the people who have never been taught of Jesus and of God, but are truly good-hearted people?? What about the kind and caring non-believers?? What about those who have been raised to not know or understand God or religion?? Are children damned because their parents teach them wrong ??

Exactly! Jesus says look around you the field is ripe for harvest but the workers are few. That's us! You're a worker and you're riled that people haven't found the truth about Jesus Christ! Rally-up those soldiers, you've got a message for them that they'll never stand against God again. This world is literally a breeding ground and us here who happen to still have bodies have the greatest impact on how it shapes up

5) Many of my loved ones would be damned by the standards I see given by Christian belief, but they have truly good hearts and are just misguided. I have a hard time believing that are all doomed and headed for hell. Is there no chance that they will be saved and accepted by God??

You should read the parable of the sower Matthew 13 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com , which is what you will be doing: sowing seeds. Over time, the seeds will grow and you'll find many of your friends will naturally soften as their hearts become more fertile. Our God is the father of life, his word gives us life.

 

[razeontherock]

This topic is developing is SUCH a deeply personal way for me! I can NEVER conceive of Holiness in any privatized way. It's ALWAYS reaching out ...

 

[aiki]

I am having a problem with this one. I understand that we are all inherently sinners and that Jesus died to atone for the sins of mankind. Where my problem or I should say problems come in is who is saved. Here are my issues:

1) What happens to infants who die? Because infants are innocent they have not yet had a chance to sin. Are they saved even though they have not had a chance to have faith??

When infants die they go to heaven. This is certainly what King David thought. (See 2 Sam. 12:19-23) Furthermore, an infant hasn't the capacity to understand the gospel and cannot therefore be held responsible for not acting upon it.

2) I have trouble believing that some people will not pass judgment merely because they tried to have faith and get to heaven but did it the wrong way. If the intent is right and people are trying with the best of their knowledge to live their lives the way they should, but still somehow were misguided does that damn them to hell??

I believe that if a person truly desires to know God, He will see to it that they do - no matter their circumstances. I have heard a number of stories over the years from missionaries and from those who had extraordinary experiences of discovering God firsthand and they all confirm this belief. Scripture, too, tells us that when one seeks after God wholeheartedly, God responds by seeking that person out. In Jeremiah chapter 29 verses 13 and 14 God promises the Israelites that if they seek Him with all their heart they will find Him. While this is a promise made directly to the Chosen People of God, it indicates God's heart toward all those who desire to know Him. "God is not willing that any should perish," the Bible says, but that all should come to saving repentance and faith in Christ. (2 Pe. 3:9) We are also told in Scripture that "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked." (Eze. 33:11) These verses indicate that God doesn't take a passive attitude toward those who are lost. Consider what God has already done in bringing salvation to us. He gave up His heavenly glory, took on human flesh, and suffered and died at the hands of those He had made. If God was willing to go this far in an effort to save us from an eternity in hell when we were "enemies toward Him in our minds by wicked works," (Col. 1:21) He is not going to hide Himself from any who sincerely desire to know Him.

In light of these things, I am confident in saying that all those who are turned away into hell at the Final Judgment never truly desired God, for if they had, God would surely have brought the gospel to the them.

3) I know some people who have truly good hearts, they love and care for others and believe in God, but that is the extent of it, they have never even read The Bible. Can they be saved?? Or will they only be saved if someone can convince them to become Christians and follow The Bible?

The Bible says that "there is none righteous, no, not one." (Ro. 3:10) It also says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Ro. 3:23) What then of those you describe as having "truly good hearts"? Do they really have such hearts? Not according to the Bible. Even the nicest person you'll ever meet is corrupted by sin. In fact, the Bible declares, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9) As a result, every person stands under God's wrathful judgment until they are cleansed of their sin and born again into His family.

The Bible informs us that there is only one way to be saved - only one. Speaking of Jesus, the apostle Peter proclaimed,

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Jesus himself declared,

John 14:6
6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Jesus also spoke of the way to heaven as a "narrow way that few would find." (Matt 7:14) Taken together, these verses make it very clear that no one will gain entrance into heaven by any other means than Christ himself.

4) I truly see the good in mankind. Yes there is evil and there is sin. But I love people.

As much as you love people, God loves them much, much more. This is why He was willing to be tortured and killed on a cross.

It is hard for me to believe that most of us are damned unless we have certain beliefs.

Where do you draw the line here, then? The psychopath who murders people has certain beliefs. So does the rapist. Their beliefs might be farther off the "target" of salvation the Bible reveals to us than the nice people you write about, but the beliefs of both, whether near or far, miss the mark. What is the point of having any "bull's-eye" at all if close is good enough? And who gets to decide how close is close enough? Just as you think the biblical way to God is too narrow, so the serial killer may regard your view of who is good enough to deserve heaven too narrow also. And who is to say you're right and the killer is wrong? As soon as we decide for ourselves the standard of "good enough for heaven," rather than God, we lose the capacity to restrict who gets in. The serial killer can look at you and say, "Who are you to tell me who can and can't get into heaven? You're just a human being, like me, without any right to set your view above my own." And he would be right.

What about the people who have never been taught of Jesus and of God, but are truly good-hearted people?? What about the kind and caring non-believers?? What about those who have been raised to not know or understand God or religion?? Are children damned because their parents teach them wrong ??

I don't know if you realize this, but all your questions are variations on the same theme. The Bible is very plain that all must come to a saving faith in Christ as their Saviour in order to be saved. There is no other way. However, Jesus did teach that not all who find themselves in hell will be punished equally.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

5) Many of my loved ones would be damned by the standards I see given by Christian belief, but they have truly good hearts and are just misguided. I have a hard time believing that are all doomed and headed for hell. Is there no chance that they will be saved and accepted by God??

There is every chance they will be saved - especially if you will pray for them and gently and lovingly share with them the gospel.

I am sorry I know it is a long post, but if you could help by answering a few of the questions I think it may help clarify some things. I am trying very hard to put my mind at ease about this. Thank you.

I think it is God's intention that the prospect of hell should make all those who are saved very uneasy - not for themselves, of course, but for those around them who are not saved and stand under the awful threat of God's judgment.

Selah.

 

[berachah]

1. Children are under the spiritual covering of their parents until they come of age. The destiny of underage children is determined by the choices and destiny of the parent.

2. There is only one that is righteous before God and that is Jesus Christ. The rest of us have sinned and fallen short and therefore to put on the righteous of Christ to be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven

3 & 4 It has been calculated that if each Christian brought only 4 people to Christ through the ages, the whole world would be saved.....

5. We all have unsaved loved ones and are called to pray for them, to live a Christlike witness before them and minister to them when God presents the opportunity. I believe God is faithful and will bring each one to Christ if we are faithful in these things.

 

[bling]

I cannot find where scripture addresses the judgment of those that never matured enough to held accountable. The Bible does address those that accept and refuse God’s Love.
We do know there is a law written on every mature adult’s heart, that causes hid conscience to be burdened from hurting other people. The question would be: if the person burdened by his transgressions seeks relieve from this burden by turning to the creator that he trusts (believes) to be Loving enough to forgive him, would God forgive him and remove his burden?
I have met people in this world that see the story of Jesus as being “Good News” and assurance that God does forgive them. They were waiting to hear and hoping for what they thought must be true of the Creator. So were they hell bound before I talked with them?
I see our earthly objective as being: the obtaining and growing of Godly type Love so we can fulfill the mission statement of “Loving God and others with all”. The easiest way to obtain that Love is with the acceptance of God’s forgiveness so “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Those that continuously refuse to accept God’s Love will eventually run through all their best opportunities and never change. Not being happy with Godly Love and desiring only selfish Love would mean they would not be happy in heaven since heaven is a huge Love feast.
From my understanding of God’s Love, I would say God would bring to heaven those that never had the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective (of at least obtaining Godly type Love the result of a free will decision with likely alternatives [pleasure of sin ]) having only a strong child for parent type love and those with Godly type Love would serve and protect them.

 

[Harry3142]

No one is 'good enough' to pass God's muster. That is a hard truth, but it is a truth, nonetheless.

At the time that Jesus was among us there were those who were teaching adherence to the law as the gateway to salvation. If we obeyed the Mosaic Law, as well as the numerous additions that they had attached to those laws in the intervening centuries, we could earn our way into God's presence. We hear it yet today in phrases such as "balancing the scales". But Jesus himself 'shot down' the notion that we were earning any reward:

Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel of St. Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

The only reward that we are to look forward to receiving is the sense of accomplishment we have when we successfully complete a task set before us. There is to be no thought of any higher reward. We have merely done what we were supposed to do, and nothing more.

But the reason for Jesus' having to come among us was, and still is, the fact that we are incapable of doing everything that we should. We are also incapable of refraining from doing all that we should not be doing. God's standard of perfection is just that, namely, perfection. And we don't measure up.

But the Author of Justice has other titles, such as the Epitome of Mercy and the Ultimate Realist. He knew that we could never 'measure up' to his demands, so he laid out the plans for our rescue from our own weakness:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

We don't teach salvation by grace because it's the easy way to attain eternal life; we teach it because it's the only way to attain eternal life. God himself has provided us with the very righteousness which he requires of us. But the only way to get this righteousness is to ask God to give it to us as a free gift. We can never earn it, nor can we augment it; God himself has seen to that.

 

[salida]

1) What happens to infants who die? Because infants are innocent they have not yet had a chance to sin. Are they saved even though they have not had a chance to have faith??
Yes. They don’t know what sin is. There is an age of accountability and God knows what that is.

2) I have trouble believing that some people will not pass judgment merely because they tried to have faith and get to heaven but did it the wrong way. God does all he can except force us to have faith. Romans 1:20, Acts 17:26-27. His way is perfect justice.

3) I know some people who have truly good hearts, they love and care for others and believe in God, but that is the extent of it, they have never even read The Bible. Can they be saved?? Or will they only be saved if someone can convince them to become Christians and follow The Bible??
Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
Its not a matter of being good or bad natured-its about finding the spiritual medicine to cure you.

4) I truly see the good in mankind. Yes there is evil and there is sin. But I love people. It is hard for me to believe that most of us are damned unless we have certain beliefs. What about the people who have never been taught of Jesus and of God, but are truly good-hearted people?? What about the kind and caring non-believers?? What about those who have been raised to not know or understand God or religion?? Are children damned because their parents teach them wrong ?? No. Children are responsible to themselves.
I know many people who are not raised christian-who are.

5) Many of my loved ones would be damned by the standards I see given by Christian belief, but they have truly good hearts and are just misguided. I have a hard time believing that are all doomed and headed for hell. Is there no chance that they will be saved and accepted by God? People make their choices and choose to stay misguided sometimes. Also, they don't want to hear the evidence.
If there was just one physical cure to save your life-would you accept that? Probably. So, why is it difficult to understand the one spiritual cure. I have studied other religions.

I suggest you research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel a former athiest. Christiananswers.net, www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Imd0137,Your questions are yet another 'is God fair?' one. God himself says that he is arbitrary in his mercy. He is also selective in who he calls to his election. Some clay pots (that be us) are made for honour, others for dishonour (as in bedpans) to be broken. The many will perish, the few will be saved. We don't think this is fair because we have a God-given sense of fairness, especially where eternity is concerned. As I read it many will die uncalled and unaware, including children. They will not live forever in torment but just remain 'asleep', unaware of what they've missed. In that God is neither unfair or unjust, it's His plan and His choice. God does reveal in Ezekiel 37 that the whole past nation of Israel will be resurrected to physical life, receive His spirit, and enjoy His presence forever. owg

 

[lmd0137]

Thank you your responses do help some

 

[Emmy]

Dear Imd0137. Jesus tells us that the two Commandments: to love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds, And to love our neighbour as we love ourselves, are of most importance. God is Love, and God wants our love, selfless and unconditional, given freely to God, and given to all others, friends or no friends, as we love ourselves. On these Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. We were banished to Earth to learn to love (selflessly) and to forgive as God has forgiven us. Easy to remember and straightforward. That is what we have to learn, and we have years to do so, and we have Jesus to help and guide us. Jesus came to Earth to show us God as He really is, our Heavenly Father who wants us back again, Jesus also paid the debt we could not pay, He died that we might live. Jesus is our Saviour and Jesus reconciled us to God. Jesus is also The Way, back to God, where we came from. Jesus also told us: " If you love me, you will follow my Commandments." What are they? Love for God, and love for each other. Jesus is our Saviour, and we follow Him back to God. What does He want from us? Love freely given to God and to each other. How are we saved? By loving freely and selflessly. God can see our hearts, Imd, and God will know how sincerely we are trying to follow His Commandments of LOVE/Agape. The Bible, God talking to Man, will explain it more in detail. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. God wants us to live with Him and each other for eternity. Love is the Key to God`s Kingdom.

 

[Emmy]

Dear oldwiseguy. God is Love, and every time we forget that, it makes me sad. When we are told about Claypots, for instance. God has given us free will, we can follow His loving advice to us, ( Commandments) or we can go our own selfish, or wilful way. When God tells us about the different claypots, God is not showing us His His Power to do as He wills, God is pointing out how very different some claypots can be, or act. God made us Good, in His image, but we had not learned to love God, or each other, as God wants us to love: with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds, and each other as we love ourselves. We are on Earth to learn to love as God wantsus to love, selflessly and unconditionally. I say this humbly and with love, dear wiseguy, God would Never treat us unfairly or without Love, and it is God`s eternal Law of Justice which repays all GOOD with rewards and Blessings, and all NOT Good with fitting consequences. We will reap what we sow, and it is God`s way of teaching us to love. And often we will get away for a long time with our obvious sins and wrongdoings, and it is God`s Love for us which has decreed, to give us enough time to learn from our mistakes and wrongdoings. God is Love, and Love knows no deceit or gives unfair punishments. I say this with love and blessed assurance. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.