How to walk in the Spirit.

pescador · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
"Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength" is not out of context.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is not out of context

"Do not murder" is not out of context.

"Justification is by faith apart from religious works" is not out of context.

"God is just, good and holy" is not out of context.

Etc., etc., etc.

Actually those are all out of context. They are just single phrases/sentences that are parts of larger paragraphs and/or chapters. The point that I am making is that all words must be considered as parts of a whole context. That context provides the meaning.

For example, "love your neighbor as yourself". Leviticus 19:18, "You must not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you must love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." The first part is important about what not to do.

Matthew 5:43, "“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’" Again, the contrast is important.

Mark 12:33, "And to love him with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” The comparison between sacrifices and behavior is critical.

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments, “Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet,” (and if there is any other commandment) are summed up in this, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Again, we are told what not to do as comparison to what we should do.

Galatians 5:14, "For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” Showing how loving your neighbor fulfills the whole law.

Each of these amplifies the meaning of "love your neighbor as yourself" to give us a fuller understanding. Just simply quoting the verse from Leviticus doesn't provide full understanding; it must be explained in fuller context for us to understand all the ramifications.

That is the reason we have all our "books" of the Bible. God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit must be glorified by the Scriptures in full context. That is the way the Bible books were written. Pulling individual verses out of context too easily distorts their meaning.

fhansen · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Okay. . .the quote above is not Biblically true.

Many love well who will not be saved, as in Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus Christ.

We will be judged on our possession of saving faith in Jesus Christ, not "on our love," for love can be faithless.

Um, no, faith can be loveless, as Paul and Augustine maintained:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing." Augustine

Without love demons should tremble, because they obviously haven't even gotten on the path of righteousness. Again, love defines righteousness or justice for man, which is why the greatest commandments happen to be what they are. Love is the natural product of entering God's family and coexisting and "rubbing elbows" with Him. It's the absolute ground zero heart and soul and central focus of the Christian faith, the reason Jesus came and the motivation behind everything He said and did. Jesus is love, and wants us to love as He does, and to know the uncompromised peace and happiness that such love, that He, causes in us. Faith does its part as it opens the door to that love, to Him. We must step through, and remain in that love. Sin opposes and can destroy love in us. And this love, agape, is impossible without grace, apart from God IOW.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
"Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength" is not out of context.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" is not out of context
"Do not murder" is not out of context.
"Justification is by faith apart from religious works" is not out of context.
"God is just, good and holy" is not out of context.

pescador said:
Actually those are all out of context. They are just single phrases/sentences that are parts of larger paragraphs and/or chapters. The point that I am making is that all words must be considered as parts of a whole context. That context provides the meaning.

I understand.

The point I am making is that some words mean the same thing within or without any context.

For example, "love your neighbor as yourself". Leviticus 19:18, "You must not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you must love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." The first part is important about what not to do.

Matthew 5:43, "“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’" Again, the contrast is important.

Mark 12:33, "And to love him with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” The comparison between sacrifices and behavior is critical.

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments, “Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet,” (and if there is any other commandment) are summed up in this, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Again, we are told what not to do as comparison to what we should do.

Galatians 5:14, "For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” Showing how loving your neighbor fulfills the whole law.

Each of these amplifies the meaning of "love your neighbor as yourself" to give us a fuller understanding. Just simply quoting the verse from Leviticus doesn't provide full understanding;
it must be explained in fuller context for us to understand all the ramifications.

There is no "fuller context" nor "more ramifications" than "as yourself."

You have only to ask what you would want for yourself in any situation and you know what is required of you.

That is the reason we have all our "books" of the Bible. God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit must be glorified by the Scriptures in full context. That is the way the Bible books were written. Pulling individual verses out of context too easily distorts their meaning.

Yes, it can, but not always.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

fhansen said:
Um, no, faith can be loveless, as Paul and Augustine maintained:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing." Augustine

Without love demons should tremble, because they obviously haven't even gotten on the path of righteousness. Again, love defines righteousness or justice for man, which is why the greatest commandments happen to be what they are. Love is the natural product of entering God's family and coexisting and "rubbing elbows" with Him. It's the absolute ground zero heart and soul and central focus of the Christian faith, the reason Jesus came and the motivation behind everything He said and did. Jesus is love, and wants us to love as He does, and to know the uncompromised peace and happiness that such love, that He, causes in us. Faith does its part as it opens the door to that love, to Him. We must step through, and remain in that love. Sin opposes and can destroy love in us. And this love, agape, is impossible without grace, apart from God IOW.

Which is not to your point that we will be judged only by love.

For all who love well (e.g., Orthodox Jews) are not saved, therefore, love is not the standard for judgment.

Saving faith is the standard for judgment.

All those of saving faith will stand and not fall in the judgmnt.

fhansen · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Which is not to your point that we will be judged only by love.

Sure it is, because love does already encompass any and all other virtues, including faith and hope. IOW, we can have faith without love but will not have love without also having faith. Faith is the root of justification, the beginning of salvation. Love is the end.

Faith is more than a one-time act; it’s an ongoing choice.
Faith is to live and act in awareness of and union with, in consonance with, God.
And we know we’re living and acting in consonance with God if we love
And we know we love by our fruits.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

fhansen said:
Sure it is, because love does already encompass any and all other virtues, including faith and hope.

Does it? What about saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty, which is justification?

IOW, we can have faith without love but will not have love without also having faith.
Faith is the root of justification,

And the faith by which we are justified without works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5) is in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remisision of our sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty.

the beginning of salvation. Love is the end.

To all of which the Orthodox Jew who rejects Jesus Christ can rightly lay claim.

Faith is more than a one-time act; it’s an ongoing choice.
Faith is to live and act in awareness of, in union with, in consonance with, God.
And we know we’re living and acting in consonance with God if we love
And we know we love by our fruits.

And how does the Orthodox Jew who rejects Jesus Christ know he is not saved based on your criteria above. . .based on love, to which he can all rightly claim?

You keep avoiding the question.

fhansen · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Does it? What about saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty, which is justification?

And the faith by which we are justified without works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5) is in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remisision of our sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty.To all of which the Orthodox Jew who rejects Jesus Christ can rightly lay claim.

And how does the Orthodox Jew who rejects Jesus Christ know he is not saved based on your criteria above. . .based on love, to which he can all rightly claim?

You keep avoiding the question.

No, I answered it-but I'll try for better clarification. As I said, the love in question is impossible apart from grace, which is obtained through faith in Christ. Anyone can-and we often do-think we're doing what must be done. And to the extent that we do the best we can with the knowledge we have that's true as far as it goes. But God's command is to love-and yet that's only achievable via His grace, His way, the new covenant way which accomplishes the justice or righteousness in us that the old could not. And at the end of the day God does the judging- as to how well we've loved.

And even to believe is a subjective judgment call anyway, self-assessed. And while we may say we believe, talk is cheap, especially if we're not walking the talk. So not all who think they believe as they should, or love as they should, or do God's will as they should however that's defined, necessarily are. Matt 25 gives us some good examples here. But our fruits are a good guide, but not perfect; they still have to do with outward appearances whereas God judges by the heart. Some feed the hungry because they want to earn God's favor, while others feed the hungry because they love.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
And the faith by which we are justified without works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5) is in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remisision of our sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty.

fhansen said:
No, I answered it-but I'll try for better clarification. As I said, the love in question

Love is not the oject of saving faith.
Salvation is about the object of saving faith.

is impossible apart from grace, which is obtained through faith in Christ. Anyone can-and we often do-think we're doing what must be done. And to the extent that we do the best we can with the knowledge we have that's true as far as it goes. But God's command is to love-and yet that's only achievable via His grace, His way, the new covenant way which accomplishes the justice or righteousness in us that the old could not. And at the end of the day God does the judging- as to how well we've loved.

And even to believe is a subjective judgment call anyway, self-assessed. And while we may say we believe, talk is cheap, especially if we're not walking the talk. So not all who think they believe as they should, or love as they should, or do God's will as they should however that's defined, necessarily are. Matt 25 gives us some good examples here. But our fruits are a good guide, but not perfect; they still have to do with outward appearances whereas God judges by the heart. Some feed the hungry because they want to earn God's favor, while others feed the hungry because they love.

You are still avoiding the object of saving faith, without which saving faith, one is condemned.

fhansen · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Does it? What about saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty, which is justification?

Justification is more than forgiveness and the remission of sins; justification means to be made just, which means that as a new creation in Christ we should begin to act like it now. And then we're expected to continue to live and act like it-and to grow in that justice or righteousness even.

Clare73 said:
And the faith by which we are justified without works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5) is in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remisision of our sin and right-standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty.

Again, He does even more for us than that. He empowers us to be purified even more yet, and to remain there, even as we still struggle against sin afterwards, which means, on the flip side, that we're also actually struggling with faith, along with hope and love. As I said, faith is an ongoing choice, with which we pick up our cross daily, as we're willing.

fhansen · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Love is not the oject of saving faith.
Salvation is about the object of saving faith.

You are still avoiding the object of saving faith, without which saving faith, one is condemned.

I avoided nothing; I explained quite well the role and necessity of faith. You just want it all to end there-in faith alone, in a "saving faith", and it does not. It begins there.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

fhansen said:
Justification is more than forgiveness and the remission of sins;
justification means to be made just,

No, it does not. The Greek word means to be declared "not guilty."
It is a judicial declaration by the Court of no guilt under the law.

Justification is "to be declared just," in right-standing with God's justice.

In the NT, the divine declaration of "not guilty" (a one-time event and permanent status) is because of faith (apart from works) in the atoning work of Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for your sin, giving you right-standing (righteousness) with God's justice, the righteousness (right-standing) of Jesus Christ being imputed (imparted) to you (Romans 5:18-19) by that faith.

"To be made just" is what follows the imputed righteousnesss of justification, in walking with the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification, growing in holiness (righteousness, justness).

Justification is remission of sin, declaration of not guilty, and imputed righteousness (right-standing with God's justice) of Jesus Christ.

Sanctification is growth in the righteousness (justness) that is personal holiness.

which means that as a new creation in Christ we should begin to act like it now. And then we're expected to continue to live and act like it-and to grow in that justice or righteousness even.

Again, He does even more for us than that. He empowers us to be purified even more yet, and to remain there, even as we still struggle against sin afterwards, which means, on the flip side, that we're also actually struggling with faith, along with hope and love. As I said, faith is an ongoing choice, with which we pick up our cross daily, as we're willing.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

fhansen said:
I avoided nothing; I explained quite well the role and necessity of faith. You just want it all to end there-in faith alone, in a "saving faith", and it does not. It begins there.

Correct, it begins there. . .but not for those who reject Jesus Christ, and, therefore, it doesn't matter where it ends for them, in love or not, because they have not begun in saving faith and do not have it; they do not believe in Jesus Christ and, therefore, they are not saved, no matter how well they love in "the end."

fhansen · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Correct, it begins there. . .but not for those who reject Jesus Christ, and, therefore, it doesn't matter where it ends for them, in love or not, because they have not begun in saving faith and do not have it; they do not believe in Jesus Christ and, therefore, they are not saved, no matter how well they love in "the end."

Ok, and as I believe you mentioned, salvation is presented as taking place in all three tenses. It all begins with faith, and salvation is worked out from there. And more will be expected of those given more.

pescador · May 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
Correct, it begins there. . .but not for those who reject Jesus Christ, and, therefore, it doesn't matter where it ends for them, in love or not, because they have not begun in saving faith and do not have it; they do not believe in Jesus Christ and, therefore, they are not saved, no matter how well they love in "the end."

Your posts have nothing to do with "how to walk in the Spirit" the OP subject.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

fhansen said:
Ok, and as I believe you mentioned, salvation is presented as taking place in all three tenses. It all begins with faith, and salvation is worked out from there. And more will be expected of those given more.

The beginning is salvation by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. (salvation past)

Then that same salvation from the beginning grows in holiness as one walks with the Spirit in obedience. (salvation present)

And that same salvation from the beginning is completed at the resurrection. (salvation future)

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

pescador said:
Your posts have nothing to do with "how to walk in the Spirit" the OP subject.

I agree. . .I responded to posts not on the OP subject.

Thanks for reminding me.

Feel free to do it again

BNR32FAN · May 30, 2021

Sidon said:
Legalists who have misunderstood Salvation, or religious people who are not really born again, think that they keep themselves saved.
They will teach that "confessing sin" is how they keep themselves saved.
I point out all the time to this type religious person, that if you took Jesus off the Cross, and He never died for the sin of the world, and you then :

1. are Water Baptized 150 times
2. Confess Sin all the time from dusk till dawn

If you do those, and die, you go to hell then the lake of fire.
Why?
Because those 2 things, and including everything you can possibly do OF YOURSELF, (works) can't redeem you or make you righteous. See, you have to have God's Righteousness, to by accepted by God, which is WHY you go to heaven or not.

So, confessing sin, being water baptized, being a church member, being a good person, being a nun or a priest or a minister or a pope or a TV evangelist....
= moot. = useless to get you into heaven.
Why?
Its because You can do all that and MORE, and never be born again.
Jesus said, "you MUST be born again".
So, What does that show you?
That shows you that all your self effort, is useless, and only Jesus saves.
See, Jesus's blood making you RIGHTEOUS...= is the only Way to God.
John 14:6

Water baptism need not apply.
Good deeds need not apply.
Church membership, and confirmation need not apply.
Seeing vision of Mary, need not apply.
Studying Billy Graham's Videos need not apply.
Giving your LIFE to the orphan's of India, need not apply.
Commandment keeping need not apply.
Confessing your next 500 sins, need not apply.
ALL YOUR SELF EFFORT = need not apply.

WHY?
Because God Applies the BLOOD to you, is how you are saved, or not.
What you apply, as your deeds, are "dung".
Philippians 3

Empty words from a person who ignore scriptures.

BNR32FAN · May 30, 2021

Sidon said:
Listen, if you want me to continue to show you what have not yet understood, so that you can move forward within your theology, then speak to me with legit questions, and not with lame immature, insults.
I think you can handle this, bnr32fan.
Give it a try.

You have only shown me that you ignore every verse that refutes your theology. Every verse I’ve quoted that refutes your theology you say is a parable or it’s symbolic and not useful for formulating doctrine. In short you simply dismiss them.

Sidon said:
Legalist always take a symbolic verse, and try to TEACH IT as if its to be understood, literally.
That is not how you "rightly divide" verses.
You dont take a symbolic verse, and teach it as if its a literal verse.
Try to understand that symbolic, is symbolic. Analogy is analogy, and Literal, is neither.

See what I mean?

BNR32FAN · May 30, 2021

Sidon said:
So, to ABIDE IN, or INSIDE of This Spiritual place, which is "IN CHRIST"< is caused by God giving you the NEW BIRTH.
You only ABIDE, if you are a NEW CREATION "in Christ".
That's how you ABIDE, and that is WHY.

This explanation ignores verses 4,5,and 7.

Verse 4 Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to abide/remain in Him and tells them why they must abide/remain in Him. If they have no control over whether or not they will abide then this verse is useless.

Verse 5 again Jesus explain why they must abide/remain in Him which is again pointless if they have no control over it.

Verse 7 Jesus tells them what they can expect IF they abide/remain in Him. Do you see that word in verse 7 “IF you abide in Me”? It’s setting an uncertain condition that is required in order to receive anything they ask. It indicates an uncertainty of whether or not they will meet the requirement. Just like I’ve pointed out several times in Luke 13:6-9 that despite Jesus giving special attention to the tree it is uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will be cut down but unfortunately you ignore that passage because it’s a parable. And your so fond of saying parables are “symbolic” and not useable to formulate doctrine. So until you can reconcile your theology with all scripture you really don’t have a leg to stand on. I’ll be more than happy to explain how my theology doesn’t contradict ANY VERSE YOU HAVE. You will NEVER see me avoiding questions on how any verse contradicts my theology.

Servus · May 30, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
You have only shown me that you ignore every verse that refutes your theology. Every verse I’ve quoted that refutes your theology you say is a parable or it’s symbolic and not useful for formulating doctrine. In short you simply dismiss them.

See what I mean?

I know a Catholic theologian who probably would agree with him, based on what I've heard him say about how the early church fathers interpreted scripture. And about taking symbolism literally etc.

How to walk in the Spirit.

Wise old man

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Wise old man

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

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