How to tell the difference between the Catholic Church and Certain Cults

simonthezealot

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If you honesltly believe scripture was meant to be used so each individual can start their own belief system based soley on their own interpretation then that's what you believe.
Who said start there own belief system??:o
the apostles through the holy spirit have given us ONE truth recorded in scripture.
 
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boswd

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Who said start there own belief system??:o
the apostles through the holy spirit have given us ONE truth recorded in scripture.


yes I agree but the rationale you are using is used by many who are in charge of their own denominations that are springing up like weeds.
I agree scripture is not just for Pastor but for the students as well.

In school everyone has a text book, but is everyone the teacher?
we are to learn and worship TOGETHER, not run off and start your own class.
 
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Athanasias

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Who said start there own belief system??:o
the apostles through the holy spirit have given us ONE truth recorded in scripture.

And according to protestant sola scriptura understanding what is contained in that one truth?? Presbyterianism truth or baptist truth or Lutheran truth?? Hey they started their own belief system when they disagreed with what they thought scripture taught on various issues?! Is Double predestination taught and part of that truth? Is once saved always saved taught and part of that truth or can one loose his salvation? Is baptismal regeneration taught and part of that truth or is it not as various protestants dissagree.? Is infant baptism taught and truth or it it not as protestants dissagree? Is The symbolic take on the Eucharist taught or the other two that protestants teach? So what is that One set of Truths that Jesus teaches because I gotta tell you protestants seem to have a very schizophremnic view of the one set of truths if sola scriptura is true!
Seems to be that sola scriptura is one of the only things you can know that is truth? Or is it?
 
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Albion

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And according to protestant sola scriptura understanding what is contained in that one truth??

All that is necessary to salvation.

Presbyterianism truth or baptist truth or Lutheran truth??
They are all in agreement on the answer to your question.

Hey they started their own belief system when they disagreed with what they thought scripture taught on various issues?!
Well, so did all the Catholic churches, didn't they? Two have popes, one has an infallible pope, some accept seven Ecumenical Councils, others three, and so on. Each of them rejects Sola Scriptura in favor of its own version of Tradition that is different from the next church's version of what's taught by Tradition.

Double predestination taught and part of that truth?
Is answering that essential to our salvation?

Is once saved always saved taught and part of that truth or can one loose his salvation?
Is that essential to our salvation? You get the idea. What you are speaking of when mentioning Sola Scripture is the SOURCE of guidance, not that we will all agree on how we interpret it, and that's no different from the Catholic churches which all say that they believe in Tradition as determining what they believe, yet each holds doctrines different from the next one.

I gotta tell you protestants seem to have a very schizophremnic view of the one set of truths if sola scriptura is true!
Not in the least. We believe that the Scriptures are the revealed and inerrant Word of God (as they themselves testify to being) and contain all things necessary for salvation. That seems far less "schizophrenic" than sorting through a collection of different religious and cultural Traditions which no one can name or reference (as we do with the Bible) since they are no more or less than what each church SAYS it has extracted from the stream of opinion and theory that Christians have dealt in over the centuries.
 
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Albion

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"amoung you" does not mean "each of you go, read by yourselves, and believe your own interpretation". Look where that has gotten people over the past 2000yrs. It's speaking to whole groups. Now if you and I both read something, and we come to two different conclusions, are we both right?

I really think that it would help discussions like this one if everyone spoke in real terms, not the usual denominational slogans. Every individual does not start his own church. The TV evangelist most people don't care for does not define reformed Christianity. It's not the case that next guy's "groups" are all wrong, but the speaker's groups are always right. And if two people come to two different conclusions from reading the Bible, how is that worse than when two different people reach different opinions on whether to take it as the final and correct word when this bishop speaks versus when that other bishop or council says something in opposition to it?
 
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squint

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I really think that it would help discussions like this one if everyone spoke in real terms, not the usual denominational slogans. Every individual does not start his own church. The TV evangelist most people don't care for does not define reformed Christianity. It's not the case that next guy's "groups" are all wrong, but the speaker's groups are always right. And if two people come to two different conclusions from reading the Bible, how is that worse than when two different people reach different opinions on whether to take it as the final and correct word when this bishop speaks versus when that other bishop or council says something in opposition to it?

You mean LIKE THIS?

Cardinal Cormac Myrphy O'Connor Speaks of his Hope of Universal Salvation

Cardinal Ratzinger letter to the U.S. bishops, on refusing Communion to pro-abortionists and those in obstinate sin

Here is a demonstration of TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT views coming frrom within the RCC...

are we to presume BOTH are correct when these TWO VIEWS are obviously IN OPEN CONFLICT.

One says MAYBE. The other says FOR SURE.

squint
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You mean LIKE THIS?

Cardinal Cormac Myrphy O'Connor Speaks of his Hope of Universal Salvation

Cardinal Ratzinger letter to the U.S. bishops, on refusing Communion to pro-abortionists and those in obstinate sin

Here is a demonstration of TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT views coming frrom within the RCC...

are we to presume BOTH are correct when these TWO VIEWS are obviously IN OPEN CONFLICT.

One says MAYBE. The other says FOR SURE.

squint
Interesting. And thanks for those links. I don't have time to look at them right now, but will do so when I do. :wave:
 
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Athanasias

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All that is necessary to salvation.


They are all in agreement on the answer to your question.


Well, so did all the Catholic churches, didn't they? Two have popes, one has an infallible pope, some accept seven Ecumenical Councils, others three, and so on. Each of them rejects Sola Scriptura in favor of its own version of Tradition that is different from the next church's version of what's taught by Tradition.


Is answering that essential to our salvation?


Is that essential to our salvation? You get the idea. What you are speaking of when mentioning Sola Scripture is the SOURCE of guidance, not that we will all agree on how we interpret it, and that's no different from the Catholic churches which all say that they believe in Tradition as determining what they believe, yet each holds doctrines different from the next one.


Not in the least. We believe that the Scriptures are the revealed and inerrant Word of God (as they themselves testify to being) and contain all things necessary for salvation. That seems far less "schizophrenic" than sorting through a collection of different religious and cultural Traditions which no one can name or reference (as we do with the Bible) since they are no more or less than what each church SAYS it has extracted from the stream of opinion and theory that Christians have dealt in over the centuries.

Well then protestants using sola scriptura are stuck and cannot answer these questions even on the basics of salvation and how one comes to God and is saved initially.

Does a person come to Christ and get saved initially by infant baptismal regeneration as Lutherans teach or by a decision that is made later on when their 8-12 years old as Baptist teach??? I would say that is a crucial question, (how do I get saved and at what age can I be) when it comes to salvation don't you?

Now your know your just sounding foolish and playing childish games when you say that there are several Catholci churches. You know that sedevacantist chruches have been excommunicated by the Catholic church. They call themselves Catholic but so do protestants but the world knows who the Catholic church is and who is her leader. When you watch TV when they speak of the Catholic church they turn to Rome and the Bishop of Rome not some guy claiming he is the pope who lives in Virginia and not some Anglican or Lutheran minister or bishop! When you do a paper on the Catholci Church for school teachers wan to know about Rome not the USA and its sedevacantist. The world know what a Catholic is. But does the world know what a protestant is or what truth is if they are all divided using he bible alone as their source?? So which truth is it? Lutheran truth or Anglican truth? Baptist truth or Presbyterian truth?

If you all go by 2 Tim 3:16-17 then who is the man of God that these scriptures are sufficient for teaching then why haven't they worked yet? The Lutheran pastor who teaches baptismal infant regeneration or the Baptist who teaches the opposite?? What does the bible teach? How can you even know about salvation if the bible alone is already shown it can't work in others areas practically? Are you so sure your right?

I don't think you can answer that can you??

If sola scriptura is the source of guidance and you can't agree on how to interpret it as there are about 28,000 different ways in protestantism then how can it be the source of all truth that can tell something if it can't tell you something? How does that work practically for you???? Its a bankrupt system isn't it??

I would think that the Baptismal regeneration and the Eucharist are essential to my salvation given what the Jesus and the apostles and the aposotlic tradition speaks about These things. Yet you all dissagree. Can protestantism show one how to be saved? Ask different protestants from different denominations and they will tell you differetn things. One might tell you infant baptism and faith the other might tell you no baptism but faith? so you guys seem lost and sola scriptura doesn't help you get to the truth one bit. Would God really set up his truth in sola scriptura so no one could know what he reveled? Is that the way God works??
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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I'm sorry for you, truly. Christianity was never meant to be a "lone ranger" faith. I can only ask that you see the pride in your responses in this one post.

I agree! It's the extreme lone-ranger types (not calling anyone posting in this thread this) that cause the most damage to the faith IMHO; and there are many many out there messing up the faith...aka modern day heresy.

To deny the importance of the ECF and their writings is IMHO pure ignorance and outright prideful.


Peace.
 
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Albion

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Well then protestants using sola scriptura are stuck and cannot answer these questions even on the basics of salvation and how one comes to God and is saved initially.

Well, thats' not true at all. I guess you'd like it to be ture, but it isn't. I am a Protestant and I already offered to name any number of necessary doctrines that are derived from the Bible Alone, so you are clearly wrong in saying what you just did. How many would you like me to identify for you that come from Scripture? Two was the number you were asked for from Tradition, as I recall, so how about that?

1. Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate.
2. The Lord's Supper is to be celebrated by us, using bread and wine.

Would half a dozen be better? Just liet me know.

Does a person come to Christ and get saved initially by infant baptismal regeneration as Lutherans teach or by a decision that is made later on when their 8-12 years old as Baptist teach???
Check with Scripture and see what it teaches you.

Now your know your just sounding foolish and playing childish games when you say that there are several Catholc churches. You know that sedevacantist chruches have been excommunicated by the Catholic church.
What is true but unfamilar may seem foolish to the listener. The things of God, we are told in scripture, are going to seem foolish to mortals because we don't understand them fully. They cut against our assumptions, so we naturally want to call them wrong.

Not only is there the Roman Catholic Church, but there are the Old Catholic Churches (they have their own forum on CF shared with the Anglicans). Then the Eastern churches, classified as Catholic--the Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the many Eastern Orthodox Churches. The Liberal Catholic Churches, too. The same directory which identifies 30,000 Protestant churches also identifies over 300 Roman Cathoic Churches ALONE, not to mention the many Catholic churches such as the above names ones.

Most of these differ with each other on doctrine and also on what Tradition is and teaches. By your agrument, they are stuck and don't knwo what Tradition teaches.

If you all go by 2 Tim 3:16-17 then who is the man of God that these scriptures are sufficient for teaching then why haven't they worked yet? The Lutheran pastor who teaches baptismal infant regeneration or the Baptist who teaches the opposite?? What does the bible teach? How can you even know about salvation if the bible alone is already shown it can't work in others areas practically? Are you so sure your right?
Protestants differ in their interpretation of scripture. That doesn't make Scripture wrong, now does it? NO. Catholics differ when it comes to what their alternative--Tradition--teaches. But at least we knoiw what the Bible is! What Tradition are we talking about and what does it teach?

Bottom line here is that you want to compare one denomination--the Roman Catholic Church to every Protestant denomination simultaneously. Wonder of wonders, that makes the RCC look united and the Protestants--taken as a mass as if they all ever believed the same or had a similar background in any way other than that they are not Roman Catholic churches--have disagreements. That is of coruse a false way of making a comparison.

I could, for example, compare the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod to every Catholic church (or let's say every church which is on the Apostolic forum on CF for having a claim to Apostolic Succession) at once--and guess what we find? Oh yes, the LCMS is united while the RCC and similar churches are all over the place. By that argument, the RCC cannot be right since it is part of a group that is disunited.

I don't think you can answer that can you??
The above is the answer, and no, it wasn't hard at all.

Thought of any doctrines that are strictly from Tradition yet?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I agree! It's the extreme lone-ranger types (not calling anyone posting in this thread this) that cause the most damage to the faith IMHO; and there are many many out there messing up the faith...aka modern day heresy.

To deny the importance of the ECF and their writings is IMHO pure ignorance and outright prideful.

Peace.
One of these days I am actually gonna get around to reading them :thumbsup:

Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better? - Christian Forums
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?

http://www.christianforums.com/t6730673-140/
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?
 
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squint

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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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I just happen to disagree with the doctrine of Amillennialism, much as I do with Dispensationlism and Historicism ehehe :blush:
 
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Etsi

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I agree! It's the extreme lone-ranger types (not calling anyone posting in this thread this) that cause the most damage to the faith IMHO; and there are many many out there messing up the faith...aka modern day heresy.

To deny the importance of the ECF and their writings is IMHO pure ignorance and outright prideful.


Peace.
Exactly, and I first learned that lesson in the Reformed churches. I'm actually surprised to see some here that seem to claim "reformed" denying such (not you ;) ). Nowhere did I say that everyone is going and starting their own denomination, but rather I'm saying that we need to not encourage, in fact discourage, the idea of "me, my bible, and my closet" aka Lone Ranger syndrome. It's not a denominational slogan. It's something that I've seen throughout my life and to the extreme detriment of many.
 
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