How to study the supernatural?

[2PhiloVoid]

Not a very useful one perhaps. But a perfect quote to follow Warden's summary of how this thread has gone.

And you're missing PKD's. Dick is not encouraging people to not believe in things, or to believe only in those things that are concrete/physical. Dick himself certainly believed a lot of things that were the products of personal ecstatic visions-slash-probable brain malfunctions.

Yes, in having seen some of the movies adapted from his novels, I can understand your reference. I don't really agree with the "Stimulation Hypothesis."

And yes, I purposely misspelled that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So where is the evidence of the supernatural in this REALITY or Reality, as opposed to reality, then?

I don't think supernatural is a useful term until AFTER one works out his/her epistemological praxis and expectations. And being that no one has a final epistemology by which to rule them all, neither of us is going to be able to cause the other to cry uncle.

Capitalizing words just shows that you can capitalize words.

Don't insult me, Warden. You've already undercut yourself by making a cheap reference to a rock as an implied "easy" citable example of reality.

This tells me you don't see the shortcomings in your own epistemological outlook, whatever that is.

Don't think you'll swat me like you do, AV, as if I'm not educated. There is a reason I'm using Copernicus as my avatar rather that either Martin Luther or Alfred E. Neuman, after all. The praxis of Copernicus is a starting point ....................

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I don't think supernatural is a useful term until AFTER one works out his/her epistemological praxis and expectations. And being that no one has a final epistemology by which to rule them all, neither of us is going to be able to cause the other to cry uncle.

If you think this is some sort of competition then that's on you, not I. This isn't like one of AV's 'challenges' where he thinks there's a winning answer (if there even is one), it's a genuine question: where is the evidence of the supernatural? If you don't want to answer, that's fine and I won't try and force you to.

Don't insult me, Warden. You've already undercut yourself by making a cheap reference to a rock as an implied "easy" citable example of reality.

This tells me you don't see the shortcomings in your own epistemological outlook, whatever that is.

Don't think you'll swat me like you do, AV, as if I'm not educated. There is a reason I'm using Copernicus as my avatar rather that either Martin Luther or Alfred E. Neuman, after all. The praxis of Copernicus is a starting point ....................

It's not an insult to point out that capitalizing words only shows that you can capitalize words. If you think that a rock stops becoming a rock just because someone doesn't believe they're rocks, then go for it. More power to you. Don't expect me to see that as something rational or sensible.

You've not even shown how my epistemological outlook has any shortcomings just because I know and view what I know and view as reality is, somehow, different to yours. Just saying there's a shortcoming isn't showing there's a shortcoming.

I don't think I 'swat' AV in the slightest. Snark back, maybe, but not swat. And just because your avatar is Copernicus doesn't really mean much on the internet, sad to say. I can tell you're educated, that's a given, but just because your avatar was one of the greatest thinkers in European history doesn't mean much.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you think this is some sort of competition then that's on you, not I. This isn't like one of AV's 'challenges' where he thinks there's a winning answer (if there even is one), it's a genuine question: where is the evidence of the supernatural? If you don't want to answer, that's fine and I won't try and force you to.



It's not an insult to point out that capitalizing words only shows that you can capitalize words. If you think that a rock stops becoming a rock just because someone doesn't believe they're rocks, then go for it. More power to you. Don't expect me to see that as something rational or sensible.

You've not even shown how my epistemological outlook has any shortcomings just because I know and view what I know and view as reality is, somehow, different to yours. Just saying there's a shortcoming isn't showing there's a shortcoming.

I don't think I 'swat' AV in the slightest. Snark back, maybe, but not swat. And just because your avatar is Copernicus doesn't really mean much on the internet, sad to say. I can tell you're educated, that's a given, but just because your avatar was one of the greatest thinkers in European history doesn't mean much.

What does "mean much" to you?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

What does "mean much" to you?

General civility, over anything else. It's far too easy for people to be... oh wow, there is no word I can use that does not breach forum rules on bad language here! But I'm sure you get what I mean.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

General civility, over anything else. It's far too easy for people to be... oh wow, there is no word I can use that does not breach forum rules on bad language here! But I'm sure you get what I mean.

I can "do" civility easily enough. However, I will admit that I have a character flaw that prevents me from being the "better Christian."

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I can "do" civility easily enough. However, I will admit that I have a character flaw that prevents me from being the "better Christian."

I mean, as long as you're not wishing hellfire on people, I'd say you're being civil. c:

 

[Aaron112]

Cause and Effect comes to mind.

(And before you say what I think you're going to say, keep in mind that the first step in searching for the supernatural is to admit the supernatural exists.)

Nah.... for some the first step is getting a microscope and watching what happens.

 

[Aaron112]

Cause and Effect comes to mind.

Scientifically (if possible), what Cause makes the Effect of unbelief in the mind of the unregenerate souls ?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Scientifically (if possible), what Cause makes the Effect of unbelief in the mind of the unregenerate souls ?

Do you actually have anything to add to the thread or are you just going to act as AV's promoter?

 

[AV1611VET]

People sometimes wonder if I'll ever go back to believing (or insist that I will), but I don't see that as likely, because, in the fashion of PKD, nothing went away when I stopped believing.

Perhaps none of the following was there in the first place?

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Else you wouldn't have given all that up to become an atheist.

 

[Tinker Grey]

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
― Philip K. Dick

"I have to believe in a world outside my own mind." Leonard, Memento

 

[AV1611VET]

Nah.... for some the first step is getting a microscope and watching what happens.

Unfortunately I agree.

 

[truthpls]

So, after five pages, the majority conclusion for my asking how to study the supernatural really just boils down to "You've got to believe in the supernatural!"
Which is putting the cart before the horse when it comes to science.

On the flip side any declaration that we can or should use only the natural is something we have to do is unacceptable. . Since natural only belief IS putting the creation before the creator, they put the cart before the horse institutionally. So the 'science horse' is before the cart and must be put there since that is where it is.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I mean, as long as you're not wishing hellfire on people, I'd say you're being civil. c:

None of what I'm referring to in the realm of Epistemology has anything to do with hellfire, let alone wishing it upon someone.

On the other hand, my character flaw is that I don't have patience with people who feign legitimate questions but expect an answer that either no human can provide, or if it were to be of human origin, could only be stated in a 200+ page treatise. Some of this may, unfortunately be a side-effect of the massive Gamma radiation I was exposed to .....................................

As it is, I find that I have little patience for any stonewallers who think they have an Archimedean point guaranteeing their arguments, whether that Archimedean point is alledgely the Bible or even some form of reductivism of science. I can't stomach either one.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

None of what I'm referring to in the realm of Epistemology has anything to do with hellfire, let alone wishing it upon someone.

On the other hand, my character flaw is that I don't have patience with people who feign legitimate questions but expect an answer that either no human can provide, or if it were to be of human origin, could only be stated in a 200+ page treatise. Some of this may, unfortunately be a side-effect of the massive Gamma radiation I was exposed to .....................................

As it is, I find that I have little patience for any stonewallers who think they have an Archimedean point guaranteeing their arguments, whether that Archimedean point is alledgely the Bible or even some form of reductivism of science. I can't stomach either one.

... I'm sorry, I blanked out at the Gamma radiation part. Hope it wasn't because of accidentally snorting powdered uranium while unconscious in the Utah deserts, because that can happen (not to me but a friend of mine).

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

On the flip side any declaration that we can or should use only the natural is something we have to do is unacceptable. . Since natural only belief IS putting the creation before the creator, they put the cart before the horse institutionally. So the 'science horse' is before the cart and must be put there since that is where it is.

Buddy, it's been explained to you that science does not deal with a creator, be they from Christianity, Hinduism, Shintoism or any religion. Science does not deal with a creator. Full stop.

 

[AV1611VET]

Scientifically (if possible), what Cause makes the Effect of unbelief in the mind of the unregenerate souls ?

Good question!

A couple of things I like to expound on:

1. Where you invest your treasures.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

When a person invests all his time, talent, and treasures in academic pursuits, he runs the risk of falling victim to this principle.

He's not going to spend a huge amount of his money learning what all goes on "under the sun," then take it lightly when some uneducated nobody comes along and tells him he's wrong.

2. Pride

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Buying into a philosophy that professes you to be wise (i.e., Homo sapiens), is a sure-fire way to end up becoming an atheist.

(Am I right, Hans Blaster?)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

... I'm sorry, I blanked out at the Gamma radiation part. Hope it wasn't because of accidentally snorting powdered uranium while unconscious in the Utah deserts, because that can happen (not to me but a friend of mine).

Thanks for the concern. Now, I just have to deal with the unintended side-effects whenever I face opposition by those who think they're assured of their arguments.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Good question!

A couple of things I like to expound on:

1. Where you invest your treasures.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

When a person invests all his time, talent, and treasures in academic pursuits, he runs the risk of falling victim to this principle.

He's not going to spend a huge amount of his money learning what all goes on "under the sun," then take it lightly when some uneducated nobody comes along and tells him he's wrong.

2. Pride

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Buying into a philosophy that professes you to be wise (i.e., Homo sapiens), is a sure-fire way to end up becoming an atheist.

(Am I right, Hans Blaster?)

AV, you really do enjoy taking the Bible out of context, do you not?

Matthew 6 is specifically talking about charity, and the specific part of Romans you're quoting from is about God's wrath on Unrighteousness.