How to study the supernatural?

[JEBofChristTheLord]

So, after five pages, the majority conclusion for my asking how to study the supernatural really just boils down to "You've got to believe in the supernatural!"
Which is putting the cart before the horse when it comes to science.

Agreed. It is putting the cart before the horse, when it comes to anything. I'll give you a different thought, the one I used. I had profound curiosity about the supernatural, but huge piles of contradictory input, often from the same sources. So I asked God if He was there. Soon, He made Himself known to me, and has given me more and more to study over time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, after five pages, the majority conclusion for my asking how to study the supernatural really just boils down to "You've got to believe in the supernatural!"
Which is putting the cart before the horse when it comes to science.

You can study Christianity rationally; bits and pieces of it might be evaluated empirically. End of story.

 

[Hans Blaster]

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
― Philip K. Dick

People sometimes wonder if I'll ever go back to believing (or insist that I will), but I don't see that as likely, because, in the fashion of PKD, nothing went away when I stopped believing.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Agreed. It is putting the cart before the horse, when it comes to anything. I'll give you a different thought, the one I used. I had profound curiosity about the supernatural, but huge piles of contradictory input, often from the same sources. So I asked God if He was there. Soon, He made Himself known to me, and has given me more and more to study over time.

You can study Christianity rationally; bits and pieces of it might be evaluated empirically. End of story.

Maybe me putting it in the Creation and Evolution section might not have been the best place for it, but why do you both assume I specifically and only mean God when it comes to supernatural?

In fact, I'll go a step further and say that studying the supernatural will not automatically mean that someone will come to God. That style of thinking is 100% a cultural hang-up.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
― Philip K. Dick

That's a terrible definition for Reality.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

That's a terrible definition for Reality.

Not really. I can stop believing in rocks and they won't go away. Gravity won't go away if people stop believing it exists.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Maybe me putting it in the Creation and Evolution section might not have been the best place for it, but why do you both assume I specifically and only mean God when it comes to supernatural?

I don't assume that. I'm assuming that outside of Christianity, there is NO supernatural essence worthy of my limited human life to ponder and consider. You should know by know that if it wasn't for the presence of Christianity, I'd be an atheist.

In fact, I'll go a step further and say that studying the supernatural will not automatically mean that someone will come to God. That style of thinking is 100% a cultural hang-up.

I haven't read everything in this thread, so whatever part I missed by which you're now, from my perspective, adding your statement about having no impetus for "coming to God" isn't one that I was really implying in the first place, Warden.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I don't assume that. I'm assuming that outside of Christianity, there is NO supernatural essence worthy of my limited human life to ponder and consider. You should know by know that if it wasn't for the presence of Christianity, I'd be an atheist.

I shouldn't know that by now because I've never seen you say or even hint at such a thing.

I haven't read everything in this thread, so whatever part I missed by which you're now, from my perspective, adding your statement about having no impetus for "coming to God" isn't one that I was really implying in the first place, Warden.

What I said still stands.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Not really. I can stop believing in rocks and they won't go away. Gravity won't go away if people stop believing it exists.

You're missing my point. Whether we "believe" something or not shouldn't be dependent merely on empirical considerations. Human perception of the Reality at the moment in which we live and incompletely understand isn't the iron clad criterion by which we should sit within our evaluations.

For my part, I don't want to approach the world in a way that precludes ongoing human inquiry, as Einstein intimated:

“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day."​

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I shouldn't know that by now because I've never seen you say or even hint at such a thing.

You know now.

What I said still stands.

That's your choice of methodology then. It's not an absolute position of knowledge.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You know now.


That's your choice of methodology then. It's not an absolute position of knowledge.

Never said it was an absolute position of knowledge, but it is a fact that being from certain locations and cultures in the world will largely influence a person's views on religion.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You're missing my point. Whether we "believe" something or not shouldn't be dependent merely on empirical considerations. Human perception of the Reality at the moment in which we live and incompletely understand isn't the iron clad criterion by which we should sit within our evaluations.

For my part, I don't want to approach the world in a way that precludes ongoing human inquiry, as Einstein intimated:

“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day."​

I really do not get what you're trying to say here. Reality is reality; a rock will be a rock, gravity will be gravity, whether we stop believing in them as such. That does not preclude human inquiry in anyway shape or form. That's just you taking issue with something that the quote does not say.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Never said it was an absolute position of knowledge, but it is a fact that being from certain locations and cultures in the world will largely influence a person's views on religion.

Influence isn't a final state of mind or existence. There is diversity of perspective spread among the world in various populations. You have to account for that somewhere in your probabilities. Just because someone is born somewhere doesn't guarantee they'll conform.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I really do not get what you're trying to say here. Reality is reality; a rock will be a rock, gravity will be gravity, whether we stop believing in them as such. That does not preclude human inquiry in anyway shape or form. That's just you taking issue with something that the quote does not say.

Reality is EVERYTHING there is, and that [SET] includes a whole lot that a) we don't know and b) things we'll never know, along with the things we sense and know.

It's at this point that I like to pull out the Problem of the Criterion.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Influence isn't a final state of mind or existence. There is diversity of perspective spread among the world in various populations. You have to account for that somewhere in your probabilities. Just because someone is born somewhere doesn't guarantee they'll conform.

Hence why I said 'will largely influence'. I did not deal in an absolute in that sentence you quoted.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Reality is EVERYTHING there is, and that [SET] includes a whole lot that a) we don't know and b) things we'll never know, along with the things we sense and know.

It's at this point that I like to pull out the Problem of the Criterion.

And yet a rock will still be a rock or gravity will still be gravity even if one goes "I don't believe that rocks exist" or "I no longer believe that gravity will stop me." That is reality.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hence why I said 'will largely influence'. I did not deal in an absolute in that sentence you quoted.

Ok then. I'm not AV, so I'm not going to keep going at you. I'm just offering some ideas since you interposed.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That's a terrible definition for Reality.

Not a very useful one perhaps. But a perfect quote to follow Warden's summary of how this thread has gone.

You're missing my point. Whether we "believe" something or not shouldn't be dependent merely on empirical considerations.

And you're missing PKD's. Dick is not encouraging people to not believe in things, or to believe only in those things that are concrete/physical. Dick himself certainly believed a lot of things that were the products of personal ecstatic visions-slash-probable brain malfunctions.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And yet a rock will still be a rock or gravity will still be gravity even if one goes "I don't believe that rocks exist" or "I no longer believe that gravity will stop me." That is reality.

No, REALITY is the whole, not selected parts of it that we choose to latch onto. You're confusing the citation of selected aspects of reality, and their existence, for the Whole to which the term Reality should be, and really only be, applied.

Then again, I don't have to accept your Criterion of definition. It may be good for you, but it's certainly not one that any and every other reasonable, rational person has to accept.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No, REALITY is the whole, not selected parts of it that we choose to latch onto. You're confusing the citation of selected aspects of reality, and their existence, for the Whole to which the term Reality should be, and really only be, applied.

Then again, I don't have to accept your Criterion of definition. It may be good for you, but it's certainly not one that any and every other reasonable, rational person has to accept.

So where is the evidence of the supernatural in this REALITY or Reality, as opposed to reality, then? Capitalizing words just shows that you can capitalize words.