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How to show an atheist the possibility of God

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Davian

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No, I believe in the one True God. The devil thinks he is god, when in fact he is the opposite of the one True God.
I don't understand. Why would a supposedly all-powerful all-knowing deity be bothered by anything other than another all-powerful all-knowing deity?
So you're saying it's not true that you're conscious? Are you just going to continuing saying "I do not make that claim"?
I do not use the word as you use the word. I prefer to use the terms used by scientists working in this field use, as in this post.
Why would God need a physical brain, when His existence can be thought to be beyond space and time?
Where, exactly?
Religion is wrong.
Christianity is wrong?
It's a relationship with the one True God that is the truth.
Yet you are unable to demonstrate this "truth"?
You made it seem as if it was.
You made it seem like you were responding to someone else.
I can't delete my beliefs, I can only change them and I have no desire to change them as you haven't provided a sufficient reason for me to change them. I'm sure you can say the same to me even though
I am only here to observe, to see if there is anything to all this religious stuff.
everything I've been saying as made sense and is grounded in sound reason.
Just not in any way that you can demonstrate, it would appear.:wave:
 
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Loudmouth

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If you believe in evolution then it would make sense that evolution would eventually cut out any "gay-gene" if there ever was one because obviously being gay does nothing to promote the spread of any particular species.

There is no Christian gene. Does this mean that we should prevent people from becoming Christians?

If there is a genetic component, there is the possibility of spandrels and kin selection as counteracting any negative selection. On top of that, a good percentage of married gay couples have children in their home who are genetically related to one of the parents. Being gay does not stop you from reproducing.

So actually it does matter quite a bit to the survival of a species. The other things you mentioned do not matter for the survival of a species.

Have you looked around recently?

Again, if a male and female from different races are attracted to each other, this only promotes the survival of the species, being gay does nothing to promote the survival of a species.

Being gay does not put our species at risk of going extinct. Quit being silly.

Actually, I believe the problem with America now is that we value freedom over truth. For me personally, I value truth over freedom.

The truth is that these people love each other and should be able to live their lives how they see fit instead of being subject to someone else's religious beliefs.

I do believe my beliefs are moral simply because I value truth over anything else. I value doing the right thing over doing something just to please a certain group of people. I'm sure you believe your beliefs are moral as well, unfortunately we both can't be right.

Forcing your religious rules onto others is not truth.
 
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Chriliman

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I don't understand. Why would a supposedly all-powerful all-knowing deity be bothered by anything other than another all-powerful all-knowing deity?

Because God's consciousness can be thought of as a single mind, but can also be thought of as an infinite amount of conscious minds since He is all knowing and all-powerful. So saying there could be multiple gods is pointless because He is infinite. And what does a conscious mind tend to do? Create things and solve problems. God created us and He has solved the problem of evil through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, it just requires belief.

I do not use the word as you use the word. I prefer to use the terms used by scientists working in this field use, as in this post.


Go ahead and continue relying on subjective minds to find your absolute truth. I'll rely on God for my absolute truth.

Christianity is wrong?


Christianity has always claimed to be a relationship with Jesus Christ. If a Christian tells you that Christianity is a religion then they are not a true Christian and don't understand what it means to be a true Christian.

Yet you are unable to demonstrate this "truth"?


I'm claiming this "truth" is absolute and thus requires belief to understand. Demonstrate the "truth" that the universe came from an unknowable singularity.

I am only here to observe, to see if there is anything to all this religious stuff.

Well you're not going to get anywhere if you only observe. Eventually you have to believe one way or the other.
 
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Loudmouth

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Because God's consciousness can be thought of as a single mind, but can also be thought of as an infinite amount of conscious minds since He is all knowing and all-powerful. So saying there could be multiple gods is pointless because He is infinite. And what does a conscious mind tend to do? Create things and solve problems. God created us and He has solved the problem of evil through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, it just requires belief.

So says a fallible human.

Go ahead and continue relying on subjective minds to find your absolute truth. I'll rely on God for my absolute truth.

It appears that you rely on your own interpretation of things other fallible humans have written in books. Not exactly the same thing.

Christianity has always claimed to be a relationship with Jesus Christ. If a Christian tells you that Christianity is a religion then they are not a true Christian and don't understand what it means to be a true Christian.

Why isn't "having a relationship" with a deity a religion?

I'm claiming this "truth" is absolute and thus requires belief to understand. Demonstrate the "truth" that the universe came from an unknowable singularity.

What you need to do is demonstrate that it is truth. Anybody can make claims.

Well you're not going to get anywhere if you only observe. Eventually you have to believe one way or the other.

[sarcasm]Right, because observing the universe and learning from it hasn't gotten us anywhere.[/sarcasm]
 
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Chriliman

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There is no Christian gene. Does this mean that we should prevent people from becoming Christians?

Has any legitimate research lab ever looked for a "Christian gene"? No, because the thought that there is a "Christian gene" is ridiculous.

Being gay does not put our species at risk of going extinct. Quit being silly.

I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth in an attempt to accuse me of being silly. I never said being gay puts our species at risk of going extinct. Obviously, it would take a lot of gay people (billions) who are unwilling to reproduce the natural way to put our species at risk.

The truth is that these people love each other and should be able to live their lives how they see fit instead of being subject to someone else's religious beliefs.

You're free to believe this. I can't stop you.

Forcing your religious rules onto others is not truth.

I've said many times I don't claim to be religious, I claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I've also said I know I can't force anyone to believe what I believe, they have to choose to believe it for themselves.
 
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Loudmouth

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Has any legitimate research lab ever looked for a "Christian gene"? No, because the thought that there is a "Christian gene" is ridiculous.

Since there isn't a Christian gene and being Christian is a choice, does that mean that freedom of religion is not a right?
I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth in an attempt to accuse me of being silly. I never said being gay puts our species at risk of going extinct. Obviously, it would take a lot of gay people who are unwilling to reproduce the natural way to put our species at risk.

"So actually it does matter quite a bit to the survival of a species."--Chriliman

You're free to believe this. I can't stop you.

Can you show how I am wrong? In our country, should you be forced to live by Sharia law by your neighbors?

I've said many times I don't claim to be religious, I claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

That's the same thing.
 
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Chriliman

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Since there isn't a Christian gene and being Christian is a choice, does that mean that freedom of religion is not a right?

Depends if you value truth over freedom, or freedom over truth.

"So actually it does matter quite a bit to the survival of a species."--Chriliman

Currently the gay population in the world could be said to be around 10%-15%, this will not effect our species. 50%-55% might start effecting the species.

Can you show how I am wrong? In our country, should you be forced to live by Sharia law by your neighbors?

Forcing someone to believe anything is wrong. Let me ask you why forcing someone to believe anything is wrong. Do you have an answer?

My answer is because God Himself doesn't even force us to believe in Him, He lets us have free will to choose Him or not choose Him.

That's the same thing.

Says someone who doesn't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you ever do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ you won't think it's the same at all.
 
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Loudmouth

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Depends if you value truth over freedom, or freedom over truth.

You have to demonstrate it is truth before claiming it to be.

Currently the gay population in the world could be said to be around 10%-15%, this will not effect our species.

Then find a real reason to be upset about it.

Forcing someone to believe anything is wrong. Let me ask you why forcing someone to believe anything is wrong. Do you have an answer?

Do you? Allowing your wife or sister to show her hair in public? What about that? Should laws based on Islamic restrictions be forced on Americans?

My answer is because God Himself doesn't even force us to believe in Him, He lets us have free will to choose Him or not choose Him.

So would a non-existent deity.

Says someone who doesn't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you ever do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ you won't think it's the same at all.

Beliefs in deities are religions, and that includes religions where people believe they interact with deities.
 
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Davian

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Because God's consciousness can be thought of as a single mind, but can also be thought of as an infinite amount of conscious minds since He is all knowing and all-powerful.
It can also be thought of as a ripe potato, if all that is needed is to assert it so.
So saying there could be multiple gods is pointless because He is infinite.
Infinite would not leave room for this "devil" character you mentioned earlier. Have you thought this out?
And what does a conscious mind tend to do? Create things and solve problems. God created us and He has solved the problem of evil through the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, it just requires belief.
Belief is not a choice. I do not find the Bible stories describe reality.
Go ahead and continue relying on subjective minds to find your absolute truth. I'll rely on God for my absolute truth.
I do not seek absolute truth. I seek accurate descriptions of reality.
Christianity has always claimed to be a relationship with Jesus Christ. If a Christian tells you that Christianity is a religion then they are not a true Christian and don't understand what it means to be a true Christian.
And you , of course, are a "True Christian".

And, the all of the churches must return all of the money received as tax exceptions having falsely represented themselves as "religion". :oldthumbsup:
I'm claiming this "truth" is absolute and thus requires belief to understand.
Claim away. Why should anyone believe you?
Demonstrate the "truth" that the universe came from an unknowable singularity.
That is not my position.
Well you're not going to get anywhere if you only observe.
How do you know that I am not already somewhere?
Eventually you have to believe one way or the other.
Sure, but I do not find your religious assertions to be convincing.
 
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Chriliman

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Then find a real reason to be upset about it.

I never said I was upset. I accept that people want to be gay. This doesn't mean I have to support their behavior, especially when it goes against my beliefs.

Do you? Allowing your wife or sister to show her hair in public? What about that? Should laws based on Islamic restrictions be forced on Americans?

I've already answered this. The answer is no, no laws based on religion should be forced on anyone. People should be able to choose what they want to believe, but what people choose to believe isn't necessarily the absolute truth, there's only one absolute truth, otherwise it wouldn't be absolute.

So would a non-existent deity.

Actually, no, a non-existent deity would not exist and so would not be capable of anything.
 
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Loudmouth

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I never said I was upset. I accept that people want to be gay. This doesn't mean I have to support their behavior, especially when it goes against my beliefs.

You think you can take away other people's rights simply because of your beliefs? And you claim to have "truth"?

I've already answered this. The answer is no, no laws based on religion should be forced on anyone.

Then you are contradicting yourself.

Actually, no, a non-existent deity would not exist and so would not be capable of anything.

Nothing is exactly what you are describing for the actions of God.
 
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Chriliman

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Infinite would not leave room for this "devil" character you mentioned earlier. Have you thought this out?

If you had the ability to create a conscious being would you want that being to have free will to choose to love you or would you force that being to love you? Which would be more fulfilling, that the being chose to love you on their own or that they were forced to love you because you forced them to?

Believe is not a choice. I do not find the Bible stories describe reality.

Really? You don't choose to believe things based on your perceptions?

Claim away. Why should anyone believe you?

Because I've used reason that makes sense to explain my beliefs, this is all we can hope to do when it comes to belief.

Sure, but I do not find your religious assertions to be convincing.

I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to get you to think and question your own beliefs.
 
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Chriliman

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You think you can take away other people's rights simply because of your beliefs? And you claim to have "truth"?

Again, never said I want to take people's rights away. I'll just leave someone alone if they disagree with me.

Then you are contradicting yourself.

How so, when I've been claiming that it's not my intention to force anyone to believe what I believe?
 
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Loudmouth

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If you had the ability to create a conscious being would you want that being to have free will to choose to love you or would you force that being to love you?

My parents created me. They didn't hide their existence from me so that I could have "free will". Your argument is one of the most silliest arguments there are.

Really? You don't choose to believe things based on your perceptions?

I believe things that are based on objective facts, reason, and logic.

I find, "Well, they claim that God said it so it must be true," to be a rather lazy argument.

I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to get you to think and question your own beliefs.

Showing me unsupported beliefs parading about as dogma is not going to make me question beliefs that are based on facts, reason, and logic, nor should they.
 
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Davian

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If you had the ability to create a conscious being would you want that being to have free will to choose to love you or would you force that being to love you? Which would be more fulfilling, that the being chose to love you on their own or that they were forced to love you because you forced them to?
Let's move those goalposts. :oldthumbsup:

As I do not come from the land of false dichotomies, I do not see the only options as being "free will" (free from what?) and being forced. I would make space in the middle somewhere for "evidence for the existence for whatever this thing you are talking about for existing".

Really? You don't choose to believe things based on your perceptions?
Human perceptions are demonstrably unreliable. They may leave us believing that the Earth is flat and the Cosmos revolves around it.


Because I've used reason that makes sense to explain my beliefs, this is all we can hope to do when it comes to belief.
Indeed, but the "reasoning" that you have used has been primarily circular.

I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to get you to think and question your own beliefs.
My belief is that, for the most part, mainstream science has created an accurate description of reality. You have not given any reason to question that belief.
 
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Chriliman

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Then you support lifting bans on gay marriage?

Depends if I believe the right was wrongfully imposed. I recognize the right that gays have to be viewed as married by US law. I do not recognize the marriage of a gay couple when it comes to God's law. God's law states a marriage is only between a man and a woman. This idea of marriage came from God's law as stated in the Bible, so why should it be changed?
 
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Loudmouth

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Depends if I believe the right was wrongfully imposed. I recognize the right that gays have to be viewed as married by US law. I do not recognize the marriage of a gay couple when it comes to God's law. God's law states a marriage is only between a man and a woman. This idea of marriage came from God's law as stated in the Bible, so why should it be changed?

Marriage exists outside of Christianity and the Bible, and it predated it.

Also, kosher laws are God's laws, yet there is no ban on buying hams, even on Saturdays.
 
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Chriliman

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Okay guys, here's another analogy that I believe is very strong in showing the truth of the Bible. This is based on the question of greater importance, seeking God first or seeking Truth first.

Lets imagine that God is like the physical sun that brings all biological life to earth and God's Word the Bible can be thought of as sunscreen.

Man has observed and experienced the power of the sun for as long as we've lived on earth. We realized the sun has the power to burn our skin long before we even realized it has the power to give life to all biology on earth. As we became more intelligent we began to realize we can use natural chemicals to create a cream that can protect our skin from being burnt by the sun. This cream is sunscreen and can be thought of as God's Word the Bible. Eventually we became even more intelligent and realized through observing all the properties of the sun that its purpose isn't to burn our skin, but rather, its purpose is to give and sustain all biological life on earth.

Even so, the sun still has the power to burn our skin. (The actual burn can be thought of as evil. Evil is not God's purpose, but He allows it to remind us of His true power.) So we've developed sunscreen using our knowledge of the sun and all its properties. A man can either tell others how to make the sunscreen or simply pass on the original true formula to others because making it is a very long complex process and a man might get the formula wrong (This is a way to think about how so many other religions came from one True source, but they have the wrong formula).

One man who received the true sunscreen applied it completely and thoroughly to his skin and was fully protected when he went outside. This man would realize when he'd been out for too long because he would begin to feel the burn, so he would go back in and reapply the true sunscreen. When the sunscreen is applied correctly, our skin becomes a beautiful golden brown. (This man can be thought of as an honest God seeking man).

The sun rays that contact the skin can be thought of as the Holy Spirit. When a man reads the Bible and is focused on listening to God's Holy Spirit, he will be blessed.

Another man received the true sunscreen and didn't apply it completely to his skin, but he honestly thought he did. When he went outside he was burnt severely because he thought he was completely protected, but he wasn't. He may even go back inside and reapply the sunscreen, but again not completely. When he goes back out he will get burnt severely again in the same spot and the burn will be even deeper. If he continues doing this the burn will be so focused and deep that it may threaten his very life and he will be forced to realize the power of the sun first hand. If the man is wise he will realize the true power of the sun, but not because he knew the suns power and was fully protected by the sunscreen, but because he honestly thought he was fully protected, but the sun showed him its true power. He will then realize he needs to apply the sunscreen completely and thoroughly in order to fully protect himself from getting burnt again. He will be driven to apply the sun screen very thoroughly and completely because he now has a deep understanding of sun's power that he may not have realized had he applied the sunscreen completely in the first place (This man can be thought of as an honest Truth seeking man).

Yet another man may have received a sunscreen with the wrong formula. When he went outside he was also burnt severely, but continued using the same sunscreen and continued to get burnt. This is a foolish man who would be better off leaving the wrong sunscreen off and then going outside and experiencing the burn of the sun on his bare skin in order to realize its true power as the honest Truth seeking man did. This man could apply the correct sunscreen, but this would be even more difficult since he was already using a sunscreen that had the wrong formula (Men and women of other religions need to honestly seek Truth instead of their "god" in order to find the one True God and His True Word the Bible. If they are using a perverted version of the Bible or a text of a different religion it would be very difficult for them to go from these wrong sources to the true source the Bible, when they already believe their wrong source is the true source).

If one honestly questions Truth to the fullest, he will come to a complete unshakeable belief in the absolute truth. Evil will do everything to stop him (hence the severe focused burn required to realize the true sun's power first hand).

If a man knows about the true sunscreen, but continues going outside without the sunscreen he will continue to get burnt every time. This kind of man would be considered a very foolish man. If a man is so foolish to continue doing this, eventually his skin will become so dark that he will begin to not even notice the burn and when this happens he will now look at the sunscreen as having no value to him at all. However, even though this foolish man doesn't notice the burn, he is still being burnt severely. The burn is just causing his skin to get darker and darker and the severeness of the burn itself becomes more and more unnoticeable. This very foolish man now has no fear of the sun's power and is oblivious to the burns. The burns are the sun's reminder to him of it's power. The burn itself can be thought of as evil. Evil is not God's purpose, however he allows it to be a reminder of His power. Evil only came from the creation of free willed beings who are free to choose a will that is opposite of God's Will. Evil is not God's intended purpose. God's intended purpose is to give eternal life to all spiritual beings. The one True God has sacrificed Himself to save man from evil because He loves us.

Now back to the analogy. Science tells us that the sun will eventually explode into a red giant and engulf the earth in an fiery explosion beyond all comprehension as enormous as the earth's orbit. If we imagine man still being on earth when this happens we can imagine that the wise man has a sunscreen so strong that it might protect him from the harm of this red giant (at least he can hope it will protect him). The foolish man who has never used the sunscreen may still think he doesn't need it because he may not believe that the sun will explode into a red giant, even though many have told him this will happen.

When the time comes for the sun to explode we can imagine it might give some kind of warning that all men on earth could see and feel. This warning might be an intense heat that is a precursor to the real explosion. The wise men who have thoroughly and completely applied their sunscreen will be spared from this intense heat (this can be thought of as the rapture of the Church of Christ). The men who haven't applied the true sunscreen or haven't applied it completely will have to endure the intense heat and realize the true power of the sun. These foolish men will either become wise by applying the true sunscreen thoroughly and completely or they will continue to be foolish and only apply the true sunscreen partially.

The wise man is prepared with his skin completely covered in sunscreen and is ready for the real red giant explosion. The foolish man who hasn't completely applied the sunscreen may think he is ready for the absolute burning heat of the red giant, but doesn't realize that he hasn't correctly applied the sunscreen to his skin. When the unimaginable burning heat of the red giant explosion engulfs the earth, all men still on earth will experience a burning heat never felt by any man on earth before. (This can represent the interpretation of the tribulation time when even wise men of God will be physically tortured by evil to force them to denounce their faith. If they can persevere through this unimaginable physical torture they will be given ever lasting life. The other foolish men will not be able to withstand this physical torture because they don't have true faith and will die a painful death, but even after death the suffering has just begun)

To further illustrate this separation of the foolish man from God after tribulation, lets go back to the analogy. Lets imagine the foolish man was able to somehow survive the red giant explosion. There would be no point for him to continue using the true sunscreen because the sun will now be a white dwarf and have no power to burn him, nor will it have the power to sustain life on earth any longer. The man can still see the faint glimmer of the white dwarf, but it's power is gone from him, it can't even give him light to see. This man will be left separated from the sun in complete darkness, accept for the faint glimmer, which is only a reminder of his separation from the sun. We can imagine this very foolish man would have deep regret so unimagineable for refusing the true sunscreen for so long (This can illustrate how even when man is completely separated from God, they will still be able to see a vagueness of heaven and be constantly reminded of their separation from God).

Just as the sun gives life to all biology on earth, God gives life to all spirituality on earth and in heaven for all eternity. If the sun goes away all life on earth goes away. If God goes away, all hope of an eternal life of joy and happiness goes away and all that's left is an empty life of pure suffering. This is where I believe science has lead many intelligent people. They are seeking truth, but they're not realizing the source of that truth. They are going outside without sunscreen and continuing to get burnt, not realizing that it is the sun's power that burns them.

The sun has the power to burn us but this isn't its purpose, its purpose is to give life to all biology on earth. Even if our skin gets burnt by the sun, our bodies, having been given life by the sun, have developed a way to heal this burn, but we can't let our bodies continue to get burnt, we must use sunscreen. God's Word the Bible is our spiritual sunscreen. The wise will realize this and be promised everlasting life when they completely and thoroughly apply the Truth of the Bible to their lives. Even men who were once foolish will realize this and also be promised everlasting life. Only the very foolish may not realize this in time. They will be given many many chances to change their minds, but not an unlimited amount of chances. Eventually in about 4 billion years the sun will explode into an unimaginable red giant and engulf the earth.

I believe God will return much sooner. A man should use the Bible as his sunscreen to learn how soon God may return and prepare his soul for His return. If he refuses the Bible or thinks he's applied the Bible to his life, yet still puts his will above God's Will then he would be better off honestly seeking Truth instead. I believe science has gotten us to a point of knowledge about our universe that allows a man to honestly seek Truth and God will reveal himself to the man. Science is stuck on the phenomena of quantum physics. It seems they'll come up with anything other than the simple idea of God. In addition, this very analogy would not have been possible to think of before we discovered our sun would eventually explode into a red giant and then become a white dwarf for the better part of eternity. I believe this is a testament to the Trueness of the Bible because if you've read Revelation you'll see the correlation.

Honestly seeking Truth is the more difficult way to realize God's Truth and Power because a man will get burnt severely, but getting burnt severely once and becoming wise from it is better than foolishly getting burnt many times and becoming numb to the burn. If a man can overcome that initial severe burn and become wise from it, he will heal and will know God's Truth deeply because the burn will have gone so deep that it will have threatened his very soul. All he needs to do is realize how powerful God is to have burnt him so deeply. Once he realizes that power and accepts the fact that this all powerful God has sacrificed Himself for him, he will heal and become a new man dressed in the power of Jesus Christ. This new man will have an unshakable faith and will always use the source of Truth the Bible first before living his life and acting on his new Kingdom purpose.

Again, just an analogy, take it or leave it, the truth is in the Bible which is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 
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