How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

[Kylie]

Actually I did know without a doubt. However; just because I know something without any doubt does not exclude the possibility that I could be wrong.

However, if you were an all-knowing being, then knowing without a doubt means you can't possibly be wrong.

No, the probability of her choice being anything other than choosing vanilla Ice Cream, was the same probably of Kylie choosing a different door than the one God knew she would choose.

So then God could know something, and then turn out to be wrong?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

However, if you were an all-knowing being, then knowing without a doubt means you can't possibly be wrong.

Cool, and so true.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So then God could know something, and then turn out to be wrong?

No. Not ever, not even once.

 

[Ken-1122]

If that is the case you have not shared all relevant information, so your scenario setting was misleading. I gave you a number of possible options, you have not explained why they were not options.

I don’t need to explain anything. Remember this is about what I know; not what I can prove to yours or anybody else's satisfaction. For me to know means I am certain beyond any shadow of doubt.

know

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes it does.

If God knows which room we will choose, all other options have been eliminated!

I disagree! Just like me knowing which flavor my friend would choose does not equal me eliminating the other option.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Written to disciples:

"IF anyone thinks they know anything, then they do not know anything yet"

Forgotten proverb or New Testament admonition.

 

[Ken-1122]

However, if you were an all-knowing being, then knowing without a doubt means you can't possibly be wrong.

I'm not an "all knowing" being, but this doesn't prevent me from knowing which flavor my friend would choose.

So then God could know something, and then turn out to be wrong?

No, I could know something and turn out to be wrong. If I know something and it turns out to be right, and God knows something and it turns out to be right, it's the same thing; agree?

 

[Kylie]

I disagree! Just like me knowing which flavor my friend would choose does not equal me eliminating the other option.

But you are not an omnipotent all knowing God who is incapable of being wrong! Your comparison does not work!

 

[Kylie]

I'm not an "all knowing" being, but this doesn't prevent me from knowing which flavor my friend would choose.

Yes it does. You can not guarantee me 100% that you are correct.

No, I could know something and turn out to be wrong. If I know something and it turns out to be right, and God knows something and it turns out to be right, it's the same thing; agree?

I do not agree that it's the same thing. If you know something and you turn out to be wrong, you, didn't really know it.

If you know something and turn out to be right, either you made a lucky guess (as in the case of your friend choosing an ice cream flavour) or you were able to figure out something which could not have been any other way (such as determining the position of a spacecraft in three years using science).

If God knows something and turns out to be right, it's because he is incapable of being wrong.

Not the same at all.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I don’t need to explain anything. Remember this is about what I know; not what I can prove to yours or anybody else's satisfaction. For me to know means I am certain beyond any shadow of doubt.

know

You presented a scenario and then asked a question about it. When I answered based solely on the information provided your response was "no, that's not correct". When I then pointed out that the error is due to you withholding information your response is to simply assert that you are right and that you do not need to support your assertion.

Chalk up another "victory" to the ignorant.

 

[Strathos]

I assume you are accusing me of misinterpreting things. Here's your original post:

Please show how I have misinterpreted or added anything to the scenario.

I'm not interested in you defending the faulty conclusion your analysis leads to ("they all end the same....the ending is already known"), I am only interested in how you think I have misinterpreted or added to the scenario as presented. Please pay particular attention to the parts I have bolded.

This is not a position from an actual game, so situations like white resigning, running out of time, etc. are not applicable.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

This is not a position from an actual game, so situations like white resigning, running out of time, etc. are not applicable.

The whole discussion has been hypothetical. If you present a scenario as an analogy for predestination but fail to state all parameters then every situation is applicable. Don't blame others for your own failings.

 

[Ken-1122]

But you are not an omnipotent all knowing God who is incapable of being wrong! Your comparison does not work!

How does God being all knowing change things?

Yes it does. You can not guarantee me 100% that you are correct.

So because God claims he is all knowing, that changes everything? I could make the same claim myself! If I were to make such a claim myself, does that take away your freewill?

I do not agree that it's the same thing. If you know something and you turn out to be wrong, you, didn't really know it.

If you look up the definition of "know" that I provided, you will see that knowing has nothing to do with being accurate; it is all about how certain you are of your accuracy.

If you know something and turn out to be right, either you made a lucky guess (as in the case of your friend choosing an ice cream flavour) or you were able to figure out something which could not have been any other way (such as determining the position of a spacecraft in three years using science).

No, I was right because I was aware of the type of Ice Cream she likes and dislikes.

If God knows something and turns out to be right, it's because he is incapable of being wrong.

How does her being convinced God knows everything influence her decision?

 

[Ken-1122]

You presented a scenario and then asked a question about it. When I answered based solely on the information provided your response was "no, that's not correct". When I then pointed out that the error is due to you withholding information your response is to simply assert that you are right and that you do not need to support your assertion.

Chalk up another "victory" to the ignorant.

Not quite. I presented a scenario to answer a question about what it means to know something. You claimed I needed to provide more information; a convincing argument to support my claim of knowing. I then provided a dictionary definition to show you that to know does not require I am capable of demonstrating I am right; I only need to be 100% convinced I am right

 

[Ophiolite]

Not quite. I presented a scenario to answer a question about what it means to know something. You claimed I needed to provide more information; a convincing argument to support my claim of knowing. I then provided a dictionary definition to show you that to know does not require I am capable of demonstrating I am right; I only need to be 100% convinced I am right

That kind of knowledge isn't worth a methane burst from an ant's alimentary canal!

 

[Ken-1122]

That kind of knowledge isn't worth a methane burst from an ant's alimentary canal!

Welcome to the English language. However; there is another word that does describe a knowledge that is demonstrable; we call that Proof. I never claimed to have proof of which my friend would choose, and God never claimed proof that he is all knowing so still my argument stands.

 

[Ophiolite]

Welcome to the English language. However; there is another word that does describe a knowledge that is demonstrable; we call that Proof. I never claimed to have proof of which my friend would choose, and God never claimed proof that he is all knowing so still my argument stands.

The Christian God is generally considered to be omniscient. I fail to perceive the value of your argument. That may reflect incompetence on my part. I regret to say this leaves me untroubled.

 

[Ken-1122]

The Christian God is generally considered to be omniscient.

True! This is accepted by via faith, not proof. How is this different than if someone accepts by faith that I am omniscient? How is freewill affected?

I fail to perceive the value of your argument. That may reflect incompetence on my part. I regret to say this leaves me untroubled.

My argument was your freewill is no more affected by God knowing what you are about to do vs me knowing what you are about to do.
Consider the scenario; let's say I believe in God and believe he knows all based on my faith, but you don't even believe my God exist let alone knows all. Do you have freewill?

 

[Strathos]

The whole discussion has been hypothetical. If you present a scenario as an analogy for predestination but fail to state all parameters then every situation is applicable. Don't blame others for your own failings.

It's not applicable as I explicitly stated that it was a tablebase position.

 

[Ophiolite]

My argument was your freewill is no more affected by God knowing what you are about to do vs me knowing what you are about to do.

Knowledge of what I am about to do, by another party, is not a constraint upon my free will (if such exists). God choosing what I about to do (if he exists and has that power) is a constraint upon my free will. If he makes all my choice then I have no free will.

Consider the scenario; let's say I believe in God and believe he knows all based on my faith, but you don't even believe my God exist let alone knows all. Do you have freewill?

The presence or absence of my freewill are not in any way dependent upon the conditions of your scenario.