How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

[Strathos]

So what exactly is your point then, if you have to invoke fantasy to make your point?



My inability to travel faster than light does not force me into a particular course of action. There are still plenty of choices I can make. What's with this all-or-nothing attitude? Surely you realise it's a strawman?

I was under the impression that you were the one espousing the all or nothing attitude - either nothing is predestined or free will doesn't exist.

 

[Michael]

My inability to travel faster than light does not force me into a particular course of action. There are still plenty of choices I can make. What's with this all-or-nothing attitude? Surely you realise it's a strawman?

This comes back to my earlier point about making decisions for my children without necessarily micromanaging their lives. It's certainly possible that we have *some* free will, but not necessarily complete free will. I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This comes back to my earlier point about making decisions for my children without necessarily micromanaging their lives. It's certainly possible that we have *some* free will, but not necessarily complete free will. I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.

(didn't see previous posts, btw)
For sons, training and discipline is certainly required: foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, and if it is not driven out early, it is very destructive/ damaging/ foolish later on in life. Thus we see multitudes of grown ups today who live very foolishly, without self control, without the ability to tell right from wrong.

 

[Ophiolite]

I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.

My understanding has always been that free will related to the ability to choose between feasible/plausible/practical/possible courses of action. It did not relate to choosing something that was impossible. Consequently the need to reference a "complete" free will seems completely superfluous.

 

[Kaon]

A Christian scientist a few years ago told me that GOD was beyond science so people had to approach HIM based upon faith, like, he is outside of space and time. GOD is an immaterial spirit, right?

Some people have used logic and science, including archaeology and math, to argue away the existence of GOD per say, but not all scientists are atheists. Some of them actually do believe in GOD.

Dad says that complexity of human DNA proves that there is an intelligent creator behind the existence of mankind. He points to that as evidence of GOD and of his faith.

Some of these university professors, who have PHDs and a lot of education under their belt, like to say that GOD does not exist because its not smart or something like that.

Well, I was born pretty smart (for a human) and I still believed anyway. So why does belief in God possibly make me stupid? It does not is what I am saying.

For someone who, unlike me, won't believe on their own and they need, like, science to try and help them find GOD, what should I say to them? Is there any scientific evidence to support GOD?

I don't think GOD can actually be found by science. Science deals strictly with the earthly realm, or with what can be seen visibly, so if one is going to find HIM they have to step outside of this world based upon faith.

So GOD is an immaterial spirit, meaning HE is not confined to what can be seen and measured, HE is beyond all of it. Therefore science is unable to either prove or disprove HIS existence. And it probably never will prove HIS existence anyway.

It is like asking a cell to prove the existence of the human.

Then, asking the cell to prove the existence of the earth...

...and so on - until we get to the Absolute Most High. We would never have the knowledge (science) to explain something outside of ourselves with science, which is why we will always have to appeal to the father of science (philosophy) for some evidence.

 

[Kylie]

I was under the impression that you were the one espousing the all or nothing attitude - either nothing is predestined or free will doesn't exist.

Yes, otherwise our free will could mean the events that are predestined can't occur, or that our free will is not allowed in situations which could interfere with the predestined events coming to pass, which would include pretty much anything.

But me being limited by the speed of light doesn't count as predestination though, does it? The fact that I am unable to travel faster than light does not lock me into one specific course of action.

 

[Kylie]

This comes back to my earlier point about making decisions for my children without necessarily micromanaging their lives. It's certainly possible that we have *some* free will, but not necessarily complete free will. I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.

I agree that there are things that limit us - I can't choose to start floating around the room, for example, because I am limited by gravity.

But having limitations is not the same thing as having a choice made for us. Those limitations do not lock us in to one specific course of action. I am still able to make my own choices within the options available to me.

 

[Michael]

I agree that there are things that limit us - I can't choose to start floating around the room, for example, because I am limited by gravity.

But having limitations is not the same thing as having a choice made for us. Those limitations do not lock us in to one specific course of action. I am still able to make my own choices within the options available to me.

Would you further agree that at least "some" of your choices today were influenced by things like where you were born, your parents, your early education, and things that were not within your 'control'?

 

[Kylie]

Would you further agree that at least "some" of your choices today were influenced by things like where you were born, your parents, your early education, and things that were not within your 'control'?

Yes I would.

And once again I will point out that that is not the same thing as predestination.

Predestination is when I am locked into one specific course of action. Like if I am going to cook eggs for breakfast tomorrow morning, using the first and third egg in the carton, which I will start cooking at exactly 07:58:43.6 am, cracking the eggs into a specific location in the frying pan, and I will cook them for exactly 3 minutes and 5.2378 seconds, and I will drop the second egg onto the floor when I try to get it onto my plate.

However, the fact that I was born in Austria did not lock me into moving to Australia with my mum, or marrying a man with the same name as you, or going to certain schools.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No I didn't. If God decided what I would do, i am locked out of that decision making process.



If there is something outside myself that means I am locked into one specific course of action, then it can not be because of a choice I make. For me to make a choice, I need several possible outcomes, and you've just said that I have none.

I never said there can't be any outside influences. But such influences do not lock me into a specific course of action.

You say you have to have several (I suppose you mean at least more than one) possible outcomes, and that's ok with me, if by that you mean more than one choice. However, once you choose there can be only the one result of that choice --the outcome. I don't know why you keep saying "outcome". Why don't you say "choice", so we can be clear what we are talking about? Your choice locks you into only one outcome.

Now as for the question of choice --of course you choose! How does God causing all the different options and influences change anything if you admit to those options and influences without him having anything to do with it? You just keep repeating the same mantra --that "If God decided what I would do, i am locked out of that decision making process." Asserting it is so does not answer my question.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The difference is that in one case, I am the one making the choice, and in the other case the choice is being made by someone who is NOT



Because if someone other than me makes the choice, I am not the one who is choosing.

Honestly, this is a simple concept. Surely you understand it.



So you're are saying that because I can't travel by multiple routes simultaneously, I don't have a choice?

REALLY?



If God choose it, then I didn't, even if he made the same choice I would have made.

Let me ask you a question...

Let's say you come over to my place for dinner. I have to decide what I'm going to cook, and the final two options are steak and salad, or a plate of dog poo. I choose to make the steak and salad because I figure you don't want to eat the dog poo.

Would you claim that you had to choose between steak and dog poo? Yes or no? And why or why not?

No, I don't understand it. To me, if you admit to options and influences as causes for your choice, then it should make no difference whether God caused the causes --you still chose.

God chose, and so did you. I could even say, "and so you did."

If you gave me the option of dog poo, yes, I would choose --probably to leave your house, lol. The only difference between choosing steak or poo as opposed to which route to drive, is that the choice is more obvious and easy to make. It is still choice.

 

[Michael]

Yes I would.

And once again I will point out that that is not the same thing as predestination.

And yet some of the *most* important factors and experiences in my life could be seen as being 'predestined'.

Predestination is when I am locked into one specific course of action. Like if I am going to cook eggs for breakfast tomorrow morning, using the first and third egg in the carton, which I will start cooking at exactly 07:58:43.6 am, cracking the eggs into a specific location in the frying pan, and I will cook them for exactly 3 minutes and 5.2378 seconds, and I will drop the second egg onto the floor when I try to get it onto my plate.

I would describe such minor things as 'micromanagement' (my children example). While I didn't even attempt to control or have any influence on "minor" decisions my children might make, I still stayed *heavily* involved in 'more important' aspects of their lives. For instance, I specifically moved to Mt. Shasta from southern California because I didn't want my children to be exposed to gangs and "big city" types of influences. It was a conscious choice that I made for them in terms of the schools they would attend, the types of friends they would have access to, etc.

My intent was to "steer" them in the right direction in life without completely micromanaging their lives. I did stay actively involved in their lives until they became adults, and left my home.

However, the fact that I was born in Austria did not lock me into moving to Australia with my mum, or marrying a man with the same name as you, or going to certain schools.

Likewise, my choice to raise my children in Northern California didn't prevent them from moving to other states, or prevent one of my daughters from marrying a man from Australia and chose to live in Missouri. Even still, I think I did my best to give them a "good start" in life, and to pass on the beliefs that I believed would help them to succeed in life.

I think there's a healthy medium between pointing them in the right direction and trying to micromanage every single aspect of their lives. I would still argue that I 'predestined' many aspects of their life, even though I didn't try to interfere with their own sense of "free will".

FYI, I tend to agree with your position that we do in fact have "free will", but I would say that many aspects of my life were "predetermined"/"predestined" elements as is true for my own children. It seems to me that there is room for some amount of predetermination *and* free will. I don't see it as a binary either/or question.

 

[Strathos]

Yes, otherwise our free will could mean the events that are predestined can't occur, or that our free will is not allowed in situations which could interfere with the predestined events coming to pass, which would include pretty much anything.

But me being limited by the speed of light doesn't count as predestination though, does it? The fact that I am unable to travel faster than light does not lock me into one specific course of action.

But it limits your actions, just the same as the previously given example of being fated to die at age 84 would limit your action of committing suicide at a younger age.

 

[Kylie]

You say you have to have several (I suppose you mean at least more than one) possible outcomes, and that's ok with me, if by that you mean more than one choice. However, once you choose there can be only the one result of that choice --the outcome. I don't know why you keep saying "outcome". Why don't you say "choice", so we can be clear what we are talking about? Your choice locks you into only one outcome.

Now as for the question of choice --of course you choose! How does God causing all the different options and influences change anything if you admit to those options and influences without him having anything to do with it? You just keep repeating the same mantra --that "If God decided what I would do, i am locked out of that decision making process." Asserting it is so does not answer my question.

You seem to be missing the fact that if I have free choice, then I must be the one doing the choosing. If God is making the choice, then I am not, and thus I am not acting of my own free choice.

This simple fact seems to be elusive to you for some reason.

 

[Kylie]

No, I don't understand it. To me, if you admit to options and influences as causes for your choice, then it should make no difference whether God caused the causes --you still chose.

God chose, and so did you. I could even say, "and so you did."

If you gave me the option of dog poo, yes, I would choose --probably to leave your house, lol. The only difference between choosing steak or poo as opposed to which route to drive, is that the choice is more obvious and easy to make. It is still choice.

No.

If God makes the choice, then I am locked into that course of action. I am not making the choice for myself, I am having my actions determined by someone who isn't me. I have no choice in that situation.

Let me put it another way - If God chooses for me to have toast for breakfast tomorrow, then I am locked into having toast. I am not making that choice for myself because I can only do what God has decided for me.

And me choosing to serve steak and salad for you still robs you of the choice. As far as you are concerned, that is the only option available to you. And one option eliminates the possibility of choice. For it to be a choice, you need at least two options, and I removed all the others.

 

[Kylie]

And yet some of the *most* important factors and experiences in my life could be seen as being 'predestined'.

You saying they were predestined does not mean they were.

I would describe such minor things as 'micromanagement' (my children example). While I didn't even attempt to control or have any influence on "minor" decisions my children might make, I still stayed *heavily* involved in 'more important' aspects of their lives. For instance, I specifically moved to Mt. Shasta from southern California because I didn't want my children to be exposed to gangs and "big city" types of influences. It was a conscious choice that I made for them in terms of the schools they would attend, the types of friends they would have access to, etc.

My intent was to "steer" them in the right direction in life without completely micromanaging their lives. I did stay actively involved in their lives until they became adults, and left my home.

Missing the point. You did not force your children to follow one particular set of circumstances. You did not predetermine their lives. Providing opportunities is NOT the same thing as predestination.

Likewise, my choice to raise my children in Northern California didn't prevent them from moving to other states, or prevent one of my daughters from marrying a man from Australia and chose to live in Missouri. Even still, I think I did my best to give them a "good start" in life, and to pass on the beliefs that I believed would help them to succeed in life.

I think there's a healthy medium between pointing them in the right direction and trying to micromanage every single aspect of their lives. I would still argue that I 'predestined' many aspects of their life, even though I didn't try to interfere with their own sense of "free will".

So you provided opportunities, but you didn't predestine or predetermine anything in your kids' lives.

FYI, I tend to agree with your position that we do in fact have "free will", but I would say that many aspects of my life were "predetermined"/"predestined" elements as is true for my own children. It seems to me that there is room for some amount of predetermination *and* free will. I don't see it as a binary either/or question.

Providing opportunities for your children is not the same thing as predetermining their lives. Your choice to move so they could grow up in a better environment gave them different opportunities, but they still had plenty of choices which were theirs to make.

 

[Kylie]

But it limits your actions, just the same as the previously given example of being fated to die at age 84 would limit your action of committing suicide at a younger age.

No, me being predetermined to die at 84 locks me into one specific outcome. I have zero choice in the matter. I am forced down a single path.

Me being limited by the speed of light does not lock me into one specific outcome. There are still many different paths I can take.

 

[SelfSim]

The issue here appears to be either;
- an individual controls their own destiny (by their exercising their own choices) or;
- God does that for them.

The problem appears to arise when considering the notion that;
- a given destiny actually applies to (or is locked in for) a given individual .. (which is a belief in the first place), then;
- (presumably), where that then also applies for each and every individual .. (and no known mere human can accomplish that particular feat because every human, can be observed exercising their own individual free wills, thereby steering their own destinies towards their own particular (and varied) outcomes).

 

[Kylie]

I think of it like this...

As we go through life, it's like we are walking down a path. As we walk, we get to places where the path branches off into different forks. These represent the times we have to make choices in our lives. Some of them are big choices - which car do I buy - but others are much smaller choices - do I take my hat off when I get on the bus, or do I leave it on? Nonetheless, whether we are aware of them or not, we face many choices, and these are like forks in the path.

At the forks, there are gates closed across the entrance to each of the possible paths we can take. They are closed because we haven't gone through them, but they are not locked. We have several gates we can open and go through. Once we make a decision, we open one gate and step through. Once we do this, all the other gates we could have chosen are now locked, because we can never go back and make the choice again.

I believe that at each branching of the path, all the gates that are there are unlocked and available for us to go through. This is because each gate represents a choice that we could conceivably make, and there is nothing stopping us from, in theory, choosing any one of them. But if our lives were predestined, each time we come to a fork, we would find all the gates are locked bar one, and that is the gate we must go through. We do not choose which gate, the choice has been made for us. That is the difference between predestination and free will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You seem to be missing the fact that if I have free choice, then I must be the one doing the choosing. If God is making the choice, then I am not, and thus I am not acting of my own free choice.

This simple fact seems to be elusive to you for some reason.

Lol, we seem to be repeating ourselves.

Again, the fact you do the choosing does not mean someone else did not also choose to cause you to make that choice.