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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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The happy Objectivist

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It is remarkable how we assume our words, our descriptions and our concepts to necessarily encompass meaning and truth.

See what you do here? You assume that what we humans think, necessarily applies TO anything that has a nature. God has a nature, yet he is not SUBJECT to the external cause, 'logic and reason', or he is not FIRST cause.

Then you assume the term, 'natural', necessarily means anything that has a nature. The human notion, 'natural', only means that which usually happens, and apparently so without 'God's intervention'.

Not so. God himself is not natural. He does not fall within the chain of causation, but begins it. 'Natural' proceeds from him, and without his 'upholding' it, all that is natural would cease to exist.
I am not assuming anything, Mark Quayle. I define my terms objectively. If god is not natural, then God has no nature. If God has no nature, then God has no identity. That means it is nothing in particular, i.e., nothing.

I don't define natural as "that which usually happens". I've given my definition: The realm of things that possess a nature, i.e., an identity.

See, I understand how concepts work and are formed. I know what a proper definition entails. I have a theory of concepts, unlike Christianity. Where can I find out about how concepts are formed, validated, integrated and defined objectively in the Bible?

Nature is existence because to exist is to be something, to have a specific nature, and to be something is to exist. There is a 100% concurrence between nature and existence because there is a 100% concurrence between existence and identity.

"See what you do here? You assume that what we humans think, necessarily applies TO anything that has a nature. God has a nature, yet he is not SUBJECT to the external cause, 'logic and reason', or he is not FIRST cause."

No, in fact, I do not. I do not hold to the primacy of consciousness, which is the root of what you are saying above. I know that what humans think does not necessarily apply to all things that have a nature. I do not assume that if humans think that everything is made of marshmallows, that this applies to anything that has a nature.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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It is remarkable how we assume our words, our descriptions and our concepts to necessarily encompass meaning and truth.

See what you do here? You assume that what we humans think, necessarily applies TO anything that has a nature. God has a nature, yet he is not SUBJECT to the external cause, 'logic and reason', or he is not FIRST cause.

Then you assume the term, 'natural', necessarily means anything that has a nature. The human notion, 'natural', only means that which usually happens, and apparently so without 'God's intervention'.

Not so. God himself is not natural. He does not fall within the chain of causation, but begins it. 'Natural' proceeds from him, and without his 'upholding' it, all that is natural would cease to exist.

I feel the need to reply again to your post. It would be remarkable how ignorant the Christians I deal with are about how concepts and definitions work if I did not know that Christianity is inherently subjective.

The idea that the order we find in nature needs to be "upheld" by an unnatural god or it will go out of existence assumes that nature is inherently disorderly which is a complete rejection of the law of identity and the law of causality. Therefore it commits the fallacy of the stolen concept and can not be true.

Do you realize that by calling your god he, you are affirming that it has a nature but in the same paragraph you claim that "he" is not natural. Mark Quayle, do you think that contradictions can exist in reality?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I feel the need to reply again to your post. It would be remarkable how ignorant the Christians I deal with are about how concepts and definitions work if I did not know that Christianity is inherently subjective.

The idea that the order we find in nature needs to be "upheld" by an unnatural god or it will go out of existence assumes that nature is inherently disorderly which is a complete rejection of the law of identity and the law of causality. Therefore it commits the fallacy of the stolen concept and can not be true.

Do you realize that by calling your god he, you are affirming that it has a nature but in the same paragraph you claim that "he" is not natural. Mark Quayle, do you think that contradictions can exist in reality?

I did not say that God does not have a nature. I said, (or I tried to say), that he is not part of nature. He did not happen naturally, or according to nature. He is not subject to nature. Nature proceeds (proceeded) from him, or he is not God.

You would probably benefit in your objective thinking to study the philosophical and theological principles we refer to as the "Necessary Attributes of God"; such things as Omnipotence, Aseity, Simplicity etc, might give you some reason to doubt your "I assume nothing."

When you say, "The idea that the order we find in nature needs to be "upheld" by an unnatural god or it will go out of existence assumes that nature is inherently disorderly". YOU assume that it implies that, apparently; you seem to assume that 'upheld' implies that lack up upholding would result in disorder, and worse, you seem to assume that 'upheld' must mean something along the lines of remote control. If God is God, then "in him we live and move and have our being." Nature would not fall into disorder, if God were to cease to uphold it —it would cease to exist, or even to have existed.

Btw, 'unnatural', and 'non-natural', are not the same thing.
 
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stevevw

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It might... or we might just be seeing things really blurry.

Lenses are used for good reason.
Yes and we use a different lens to understand different domains or behaviors. Methodological naturalism is good at explaining reality in mechanical and physical terms where everything is seen as being caused by matter (particles and fields). Psychology is good for explaining human behavior and cognition and spirituality is best for understanding that which transcends all else.

Humans are multi-dimensional and each dimension needs to be understood within their domain as well as related to all dimensions. Otherwise we end up with a skewed view of reality.

We cannot use science to determine things like spirituality and consciousness because we cannot reduce this down to mechanical and physical explanations or causes. Nowhere in the mechanical process can we say that caused the realization of self and our transcendence beyond the material. That would be like saying that somewhere in the mechanical process of a violin bow rubbing on a stretched piece of cat gut produces the moving experience of Mozart's Symphony #40.

Science doesn't have a monopoly on what reality is. So using the science method to dismiss other ways of knowing and understanding reality is imposing a metaphysical position that the only reality is a mechanical and physical one. That's beyond science. Science is quiet on this. Just like spirituality is quiet on science.

We would only be seeing things blurry from a materialist worldview. It may be quite clear to someone who has a different worldview such as Indigenous peoples or those who live by spirituality. They may even say that it is the materialist view that is seeing things blurry in the overall scheme of things.
 
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SelfSim

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Yes and we use a different lens to understand different domains or behaviors. Methodological naturalism is good at explaining reality in mechanical and physical terms where everything is seen as being caused by matter (particles and fields). Psychology is good for explaining human behavior and cognition and spirituality is best for understanding that which transcends all else.

Humans are multi-dimensional and each dimension needs to be understand within their domain as well as related to all dimensions. Otherwise we end up with a skewed view and understanding of reality.

We cannot use science to determine things like spirituality and consciousness because we cannot reduce this down to mechanical and physical explanations or causes. Nowhere in the mechanical process can we say that caused the realization of self and our transcendence beyond the material. That would be like saying that somewhere in the mechanical process of a violin bow rubbing on a stretched piece of cat gut produces the moving experience of Mozart's Symphony #40.

Science doesn't have a monopoly on what reality is. So using the science method to dismiss other ways of knowing and understanding reality is imposing a metaphysical position that the only reality is a mechanical and physical one. That's beyond science. Science is quite on this. Just like spirituality is quite on science.

We would only be seeing things blurry from a materialist worldview. It may be quite clear to someone who has a different worldview such as Indigenous peoples or those who live by spirituality. They may even say that it is the materialist view that is seeing things blurry in the overall scheme of things.
Nope .. the scientific method clarifies what we mean by 'reality', in a way that doesn't depend on belief-based notions like the existence of: 'metaphysicals, spirits and transcendences beyond the material'.

Science makes use of repetitive observations for doing that, so that we can all understand what reality means, without getting bogged down in the obvious inconsistencies and contradictions that come with those alternative belief-based ways.
 
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stevevw

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Nope .. the scientific method clarifies what we mean by 'reality', in a way that doesn't depend on belief-based notions like the existence of: 'metaphysicals, spirits and transcendences beyond the material'.

Science makes use of repetitive observations for doing that, so that we can all understand what reality means, without getting bogged down in the obvious inconsistencies and contradictions that come with those alternative belief-based ways.
So are you saying that reality can only be measured through the scientific method.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I am not assuming anything, Mark Quayle. I define my terms objectively. If god is not natural, then God has no nature. If God has no nature, then God has no identity. That means it is nothing in particular, i.e., nothing.

I don't define natural as "that which usually happens". I've given my definition: The realm of things that possess a nature, i.e., an identity.

You are a rare bird indeed, that assumes nothing! It's not that I don't believe you mean that. You probably do. But nobody lacks for assumptions.

Your definitions may be definite, but they ignore common usage. In this post alone, even you use "nature" or "natural" in at least 3 ways, seen from the reader's pov. Either way, to claim to be only objective is, well —I'll leave it there.

"Natural" to most people is used several different ways. I don't see how applying YOUR definition to what I say, makes any sense. Why not the common definitions?

When I say God is not natural, I only mean that he does not fit within the usual meanings or uses of natural —I do NOT mean he has no nature. That is absurd. I am saying that God does not descend from natural causes. I am saying that he is not subject to the universe and its rules. I am saying that he is above and beyond, outside of, the universe, or universes, or worlds or whatever we normally refer to as nature.

Nature is existence because to exist is to be something, to have a specific nature, and to be something is to exist. There is a 100% concurrence between nature and existence because there is a 100% concurrence between existence and identity.

That is only one use of the word, "nature".

"See what you do here? You assume that what we humans think, necessarily applies TO anything that has a nature. God has a nature, yet he is not SUBJECT to the external cause, 'logic and reason', or he is not FIRST cause."

No, in fact, I do not. I do not hold to the primacy of consciousness, which is the root of what you are saying above. I know that what humans think does not necessarily apply to all things that have a nature. I do not assume that if humans think that everything is made of marshmallows, that this applies to anything that has a nature.

Well, no. Primacy of Consciousness includes and assumes several absurd general things; on the other hand— at least according to some of both camps (some who hold to it and some who reject it, holding to Primacy of Existence) —to reject it is to reject all of it, and to hold to Primacy of Existence. The dogmatic claim that there are only those two points of view, and that they are entirely mutually exclusive, is to me, very strange. But then, I've never heard it claimed by anyone but an atheist, who attributes reliability to human statements to accurately or fully describe anything.

I much prefer my version of Primacy of Existence, but to say that I hold to it, will induce in the minds of some that I therefore hold to the absurd notion that what exists, exists independently. To claim that our common Existence is uncaused, is absurd.

To claim our consciousness, or common consciousness, or that even God's consciousness caused what exists to exist, is also absurd. In the case of God, it is to claim that his consciousness caused his own existence. God is not mere consciousness. Certainly he is conscious —that should go without saying. But to say that he is consciousness and that this is what caused his creating, is like a blind man describing an elephant in the Kalahari.
 
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Kylie

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So are you saying that reality can only be measured through the scientific method.

I wouldn't say that science is the only way reality can be measured and described in a repeatable and testable way, but I've never seen any other method that works.
 
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stevevw

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I wouldn't say that science is the only way reality can be measured and described in a repeatable and testable way, but I've never seen any other method that works.
I think you will find it is. There is no other way to "measured and described in a repeatable and testable way"than with the science method.

So I am not sure what you meant. Are you saying there are other ways to know reality besides the scientific method. Or are you saying that reality can also consist of something other than what can be tested scientifically.
 
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SelfSim

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So are you saying that reality can only be measured through the scientific method.
No .. the scientific method provides a way for us to distinguish what reality means without relying on beliefs. .. Hey, its the worst, eh(?) .. Except for all all the rest.
 
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SelfSim

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I think you will find it is. There is no other way to "measured and described in a repeatable and testable way"than with the science method.

So I am not sure what you meant. Are you saying there are other ways to know reality besides the scientific method. Or are you saying that reality can also consist of something other than what can be tested scientifically.
Science's method defines what 'objective reality' means.
This assumed notion that reality is some thing, which 'exists' independently from human minds' perceptions, is just another bogus belief (aka: the philosophical Realist's perspective).
The results (or measurements) from some objective test, are as close as science ever gets to 'truth' beause they're already tested .. which is completely unlike Realisim's assumed (believed) truths.
 
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AV1611VET

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No .. the scientific method provides a way for us to distinguish what reality means without relying on beliefs. .. Hey, its the worst, eh(?) .. Except for all all the rest.
From a previous post of mine:

From amasci:

There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.

The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.

"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?

Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.

SOURCE: Post 1823
 
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stevevw

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No .. the scientific method provides a way for us to distinguish what reality means without relying on beliefs. .. Hey, its the worst, eh(?) .. Except for all all the rest.
what do you mean by "distinguish what reality means". It seems to me you are making some metaphysical claim beyond what the scientific method can claim.
 
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stevevw

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Science's method defines what 'objective reality' means.
This assumed notion that reality is some thing, which 'exists' independently from human minds' perceptions, is just another bogus belief (aka: the philosophical Realist's perspective).
The results (or measurements) from some objective test, are as close as science ever gets to 'truth' beause they're already tested .. which is completely unlike Realisim's assumed (believed) truths.
yet it seems the methodological naturalism is implying (by assumption) there is some reality out there (matter) beyond the human mind that is fundamental to reality.

That would be a metaphysical belief as matter cannot be independently verified scientifically.
 
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SelfSim

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From a previous post of mine:

From amasci:

There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.

The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.

"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?

Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.

SOURCE: Post 1823
That article is a pile of rubbish. Sooner or later an hypothesis is formed, tested, written up and published for review/funding.

One either thinks scientifically, or one doesn't. The proof of the existence of the mindset is in the fingerprints left behind in the research .. but one has to look for them from a scientific viewpoint .. simple as that.
 
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SelfSim

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what do you mean by "distinguish what reality means".
An example: Physics distinguishes time as being real by way of what a clock reads, with the basic unit of measurement referred to as 'a second'. The definition tests out well, provided one approaches that testing by using the scientific method.
Real time is thereby distinguished by seconds, read by observing a clock .. no beliefs required.
 
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SelfSim

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yet it seems the methodological naturalism is implying (by assumption) there is some reality out there (matter) beyond the human mind that is fundamental to reality.
.. and yet every single word in that sentence carries a human defined meaning. If it didn't, I wouldn't have a clue about what you just said .. but somehow I do.
Every single word/phrase meaning in that sentence, contradicts the assertion/assumption of what you just wrote there, ie: 'some reality 'out there' exists beyond the human mind' even though every single one of those words/meanings obviously came from a human mind .. and not from 'beyond one' .. so how can that 'assumed reality exist beyond one', when it is generated by one, using the meanings conveyed by human language in that phrase???

Its a completely nonsensical assumption/claim .. Off with the fairies, it is!
 
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AV1611VET

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No .. its misleading, deceptive rubbish!
And I would willingly demonstrate that in the dude's face, if I could be bothered.
I'll bet twenty years ago you would have talked just as tough concerning defending Pluto as our ninth planet.
 
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