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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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SelfSim

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But who said its a desperate grab. It seems to me what you were saying and what the evidence seems to point to is consciousness and Mind being fundamental. As you said "'The thing itself' never gets tested in science. Science deals in models". Those models are of the Mind and the 'thing itself' like 'matter' can never be verified in itself as real because its a model about something outside our mind. This makes consciousness and Mind fundamental before all else.
Sorry for my late reply .. (I missed your response there).

Its not only science that demonstrably deals in models.

Non-scientific thinkers also deal in models .. (which is a claim that can be demonstrated by applying the scientific method).
To understand the perspective I'm mostly on about here, one has to abandon the untestable belief that there really is 'an outside of' and 'an inside of' the mind, which is easy to do, once one observes how the mind constantly applies meaning to the (english language) phrase 'really is', as the only means of coming up with the model of: 'what exists inside and outside the mind' and then just goes on believing that (with never any commitment to actually testing that notion) .. IOW: that way is just semantics.

Science's way however, using your example of matter; matter can be assigned to exist in science's objective reality by applying the scientific method and looking at the remarkable consistency of results with the predictions of the hypothesis that: measurements will return remarkably consistent results and looking at those results. The first step in doing that, is to develop a testable definition 'of what matter is' (which is well covered in science's definitions).

Can you see the two vastly different methods at play there in deciding what is real and what isn't?
But I do disagree that our subjective model of reality is a mind model. I think its just what it is, our direct experiencing of the world. From this we can derive realities about the world. For example our experience of color and pain which are not measured in the same way as objective material reality but nonetheless can be measured in terms of them being embodied into our lives.
I would say that all you've observably done there, is to come up with a meaning of 'the world' by way of the process you call 'direct experience'. Both are still demonstrably models formed by your mind .. with no evidence whatsoever for something truly existing independently from any human mind whatsoever.

See, the whole purpose of this admittedly difficult to grasp perspective, is to shift the responsibility back onto ourselves, (where responsibility always resides), when it comes to what we mean by 'is real' .. as opposed to trying to weasel out of that, by pushing it onto something no-one can demonstrate (and only believe or, have faith in, at best) .. which is that the world exists independently from whatever meaning we assign to the phrase: 'the outside world' ... which is really just a semantic cop-out, or a cover-up, created to sleaze our way out of that responsibility.
You said "Our minds demonstrably update our knowledge with new meanings for the word 'reality' used there". I took this as support for the idea that consciousness/mind is fundamental in that it is Minds that have knowledge and information and it is the conscious observer who creates the meaning of reality and reality itself through knowledge. Without the conscious observer and knowledge there is no reality. Interpretations of QM seem to support this.
Anyone claiming that our own consciousness is not fundamental, has instantly self-defeated everything they have to say following such a dumb claim, IMO.
My reason there being, of course, is that we all can see from their word usage how they are invoking human meanings in contradicting their own position. Like: try using meanings to argue that point when you're unconscious! It cannot be done, therefore they're just blind (deliberately or otherwise), to observing their own dependence on their own consciousness to do that.
 
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SelfSim

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SelfSim

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Humans may be predisposed to faith in divine ideas, but that doesn't mean we can know 'transcendent truths' or that there even are such things.
(Just noticing how that depends on knowing there .. what one knows is a complicated concept .. thus the dictionary definition is highly contorted/circular).
 
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SelfSim

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There's a difference between scientifically detecting God and scientifically detecting a belief in God. Your idea would detect the latter.
Hmm not really sure about that .. What's the difference? .. or more like: what's the test that would distinguish the difference?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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yes, that any being called God, must be equal to or greater then the nature of the universe. since the universe is energy in a fluid form or a fixed form then any being called God must have the ability to change energy from a fluid form to a fixed form and back again. Well guess what that is the exact description of the being Called God in the Bible. He is called a being of "light". he is light and he dwells in it. Light is an energy form and is subject E=mc². Which mean that the being described in the Scripture could indeed exist and could not be any thing other then what is described in the Scripture. Since the description is consistent with known science and science known only to the people of the 20th centuary and beyond. The writers of the scripture either were very lucky in their description of God, had advanced knowledge of the universe here to fore unknow to modern science or actually saw what they were described in the text, for it is completely accurate and consistent with all known science.
This is interesting, but using the words 'energy' and 'light' and the equation E=mc² doesn't make it science or consistent with science. As Wolfgang Pauli once said, "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!" IOW, "That is not only not right, it is not even wrong!"
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Hmm not really sure about that .. What's the difference? .. or more like: what's the test that would distinguish the difference?
AIUI, there is no objective test for God, as commonly defined. But I suppose it depends on the definition of God. If God is defined as the neural correlate of a belief in God, then there is no difference. But I don't think that is the common definition of God.

Put another way, if God is defined as non-physical, and we can, in principle, find physical evidence of belief in God, there is a difference, by definition.

Ultimately, there is a difference between entertaining an idea or concept and believing that the idea or concept refers to something real. Existence may not be a predicate, but it makes a difference!
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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If you're going to respond to something I've said to someone else, at least take the conversation in it's context.

Estrid said:

If I find myself fascinated by something, I
make every effort to understand it, rather
than ignoring what is said, or interposing some
idea of my own so as to block any information
that comes to me. It's a matter of intellectual
integrity something I hold in highest value.

I said:
Interesting, so you believe you weren't doing that in response to my posts?
Yes, I read that context; I was just curious to know if the part I quoted had been said by someone.
 
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SelfSim

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Put another way, if God is defined as non-physical, and we can, in principle, find physical evidence of belief in God, there is a difference, by definition.
Hmm .. 'non-physical' is a belief. 'A belief in God' is a belief, (regardless of physical evidence). So we have a difference of two different types of belief ... but that difference is still a belief.
Ultimately, there is a difference between entertaining an idea or concept and believing that the idea or concept refers to something real. Existence may not be a predicate, but it makes a difference!
Well, if that idea or concept is described using language, that description would need to avoid using terms like 'is, are, exists, real, being, true, etc'. That might be possible .. but I doubt anyone's seen such an example which doesn't invoke or imply human representational meanings applicable to those words.
Entertaining ideas or concepts, with the intention of testing them, (objectively), still doesn't make them real .. they're describable as 'testable predictions' .. but they're still beliefs as we entertain those untested concepts.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Hmm .. 'non-physical' is a belief. 'A belief in God' is a belief, (regardless of physical evidence). So we have a difference of two different types of belief ... but that difference is still a belief.
Yes, of course; ultimately it's all beliefs, but it's useful to distinguish between types of belief by labelling them. Do we have to be able to test the difference between different types of beliefs in order to be able to say there is a difference?

Entertaining ideas or concepts, with the intention of testing them, (objectively), still doesn't make them real .. they're describable as 'testable predictions' .. but they're still beliefs as we entertain those untested concepts.
That was my point - there's a difference between entertaining ideas and concepts without believing they're real, and believing that they're real.
 
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dlamberth

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The heavenly Father (not "conciousness").
The Holy trinity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) are the same God (1 God, 3 persons). When Jesus was on earth he was fully God and fully man. Those who are saved by grace (through faith) become children of God. But you (nor I) are God, or will become God, and never will be God. your prayers to your consciousness are not to God.
So just be be clear, are you saying that whom Jesus prayed to is not conscious?
Or if He has consciousness, that consciousness is limited to a specific time and space?
I'm confused on how one limits the consciousness of God?

No one here is saying that we are God. Sorry, but I don't even understand where that came from.
 
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AV1611VET

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Our usual back and forth. That the Earth can't lie and it gives a very different Creation story than the Bible Creation story.
Tell that to the next of kin in L'Aquila.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I was refractory to supernatural belief in my early years - I had believed in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy; as a toddler, I'd had a scrappy little knitted animal that was my personal friend and confidant; I believed the lad down the street had swallowed a stone and made it come out of his belly button, and so on. But as I grew older, those beliefs fell away.
You can't compare these things with God because he's not imaginary. (Contrary to popular opinion).

As has been said, God's truth is whatever the believer thinks it is.
Not true. The Holy Bible is Gods word. Have you read it? Do you understand that when Jesus died on the cross, the veil was torn - so prayer/confession etc, we can do directly between ourselves and God? We can come "boldly to the throne of grace". (That's a hint by the way.) Jesus is the bridge - no denominations or religious practices can add to, take away or replace the word of God.

I came from the physical union of my parents, and they from theirs, in an evolutionary chain reaching back to the first molecular replicators on the early Earth. I have life as a result of that process. Life, fundamentally, is complex organic chemistry using redox reactions; it's basically a slow burn, releasing energy as heat and activity.
So you believe you're a sack of meat and when you die that's it? In the ground never to be of any use or relevance ever again? Nothing beyond your physical life? That's a pretty sad.
 
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SelfSim

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Do we have to be able to test the difference between different types of beliefs in order to be able to say there is a difference?
Hmm .. interesting.
If I was to say: 'No' there, I'd also notice that we've just realised the difference because of the 'is' word in that agreement.
IOW: Our minds have agreed the difference is real by some other means other than by an objective test.
This is called Mind Dependent Reality (via the belief way of going about it).

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
That was my point - there's a difference between entertaining ideas and concepts without believing they're real, and believing that they're real.
No .. the differnce is still demonstrably a belief because there's no objective evidence supporting it, (even if the logical reasoning and intent behind that difference is sound, which it doesn't have to be). We can only agree that they might be tentatively true .. but true is a philosophical (belief based) concept and is thus not operationally definable .. aka: not sufficient from a scientific viewpoint. One might ask why worry about the scientific viewpoint in making such a subjective call, to which I'd argue that it is important because its presence is the only way we know for clearly distinguishing a belief.
 
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SelfSim

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So you believe you're a sack of meat and when you die that's it? In the ground never to be of any use or relevance ever again? Nothing beyond your physical life? That's a pretty sad.
Memories of who we were, and what we made our lives stand for, persist in our remaining friends/family's/community's minds.
We made a conscious reality persist beyond our death.
 
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YahuahSaves

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As I said, not everyone who believes in God believes that.
If anyone believes in a God other than the Holy Bible, they're following the wrong God. I had to come to this realisation before I came to Christ. Satan is very much at work in the world today now as he was at the beginning. He's blinded the world to God, but worse, he's blinded the world to himself, even some of the Christian community don't understand the source of where true evil comes from anymore.

OW, I think the idea of intelligent design is redundant, and a very poor explanation (given reasonable criteria for what makes a good explanation).
Intelligent design "redundant"? That's a cynical view to take. Knowing a house didn't just appear out of thin air, and having the understanding that, although you may not know the builder, there was still someone who built the house is not a poor analogy. It's pointing you to a simple truth. Our universe didn't just appear out of thin air without a builder.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Yay! I'm a spiritual zombie!!

OK. So what's the practical difference between spiritual life and spiritual death? Does it show? How can you tell? Or is it just a way of talking about belief and non-belief?
The Holy Spirit (God) is the difference.
 
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