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How to prove God exists.

quatona

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If it is not that hard to understand then why is it so difficult to draw the distinction between subjective and objective?
1. The difference between subjective and objective isn´t that hard to explain when it comes to facts. It gets difficult when it gets to value judgements (and actually, imo, an "objective [insert objective value judgement of choice]" is an oxymoron, to begin with).
2. You would have to explain why a deity´s subjective value judgement is "objective".
3. We are humans living here trying to get to terms with human affairs by human standards and criteria - so the subjective value judgement of a non-human entity (even though you might be able to find a way to call it "objective") appears to be irrelevant and unnecessary, for any given intent or purpose.
 
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Radrook

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Statement:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Even if every nuke and other weapon we have built thus far detonated, some life on this planet would survive. I don't think the bacteria that live around deep sea vents would even notice.

Response:

Well Psycho Sarah, survival of such an event doesn’t prove that the surviving species is presently the dominant one.
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Statement:

Additionally, humans aren't the only species with multiple ecological niches. In fact, most invasive species aren't in the same niche in the environments they are native to as they are in the environments they have invaded.

Response:

I never claimed that we are the only ones who aren’t restricted to one ecological niche. Obviously rats and mice can survive along with us in our cities. There are Bengal tigers in temperate zones and Siberian Tigers native to the near arctic region. Roaches can be found in all types of weather and places.

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Statement:

 
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dmmesdale

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In an atheist universe i can see where you would say value judgments like imposed duties to protect the planet or preserving protecting life is oxymoronic since life here has no objective purpose.
2. You would have to explain why a deity´s subjective value judgement is "objective".
Do you have me confused with someone else?
It would not be irrelevant if accountability for life lived was required.
 
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dmmesdale

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Abiogenesis experiments recently had life arise from non-life through natural processes.
News to me. Have they collected their origin of life prize? If it is in state of the art labs then it is no more natural then cars being produced in state of the art factories. Whatever they do in the lab via intelligent agents does not demonstrate nature alone can do it. Anymore than building cars in factories means nature can make cars.
You are describing a hopeful monster that does not exist.
I say not to use it when debating with people that don't view the bible as a reliable source for information.
It is reliable in spite of what you subjectively believe.
That, or if you are going to use it, at least make a decent argument for the bible being a legitimate source of information first.
It is legit and contains much historicity. You have cities countries people in history. You have accounts. To flat out throw it all out means you are not open in the first place. Not open to the Bible, apologetics, Don't want this and don't want that. No watchmaker analogy and on it goes. So what in the ---- are you doing here on a Christian site?
Furthermore, I am not demanding that you believe me over anyone else. That would be super arrogant. However, the collective understanding of the world has never been as great as it is right now.
That is debatable.
Moses and Jesus never give any indication that they knew cells existed.
So?
I challenge you to demonstrate that the bible explains more about cells than I could.
It doesn't and i will challenge you to show you know more about the Bible than i do. The United States Constitution or any meaningful writing does not explain more about cells then you could. So what. They still have value. So i don't know wht your point is.
No, and no. I actually quite enjoy reading religious texts. However, most religious texts do present concepts and ideas that are demonstrably wrong. For example, the bible implies that pi equals 3... it's missing some very pertinent decimals there.
They don't have to be decimal exact for making bowl covers. (?) The bowl covers were in the context of the construction plans of the Solomon Temple.
As an example from religious stories that aren't in the bible, many of the Greek legends outright state that people can have more than one biological father as long as a woman has sex with more than one man on the same day.
Right, not in the Bible and neither is the usage of urine and dung as medicines.
So when the Christian god commands our species to hold dominion over the planet and take care of it, that means nothing to you?
God means something to me and nothing to you.
There are plenty of perfectly logical reasons to not want this planet to become a garbage pile. It'd mean the extinction of our species, for one, along with many if not all others.
There are no objective reasons since life is objectively meaningless in an atheistic universe. Any meaning or purpose assigned is either group or individual fiction relative to objective reality. Nothing logical about filling your head with fictions relative to objective reality and then acting on them. The end result is the same. Extinction, futility. ''Life is a tale, told by an idiot, signifying nothing.'' There is your objective reality and you should adapt to what is and not what you would like it to be.
Right a lot of species are going extinct. The planet is dying out. We are dying? So why not be contented as cows in the fields since we have it better than most who have ever lived. Why are you not as contented as an Ox at the wheel going round and round without a care in the world? Why do you clutter your head with subjective fictions?
I may have had other reasons which had little to do with your assumptions.[/QUOTE]
 
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quatona

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In an atheist universe i can see where you would say value judgments like imposed duties to protect the planet or preserving protecting life is oxymoronic since life here has no objective purpose.
You would have to explain why "duties and purpose imposed" on you by another being are "objective".
Maybe the word you are looking for is "authoritative"?
Do you have me confused with someone else?
I was under the impression that you are the one who would me believe that the subjectivity of value judgements is somewhat solved by the existence of a certain being holding these value judgements. Actually, upon reading the rest of your post here, I still am under the impression that this is the point you want to drive home. If I misunderstood you, please clarify.
It would not be irrelevant if accountability for life lived was required.
As far as I am concerned it would. Don´t know about you, but if I knew there were a God who holds me accountable (and I think by "holding accountable" you mean "punishing") for not torturing, murdering or raping others I would still not do it. So much for the relevance of deities on human affairs and moral/ethical questions. (Again, maybe you mean "authoritative" or "mighty" when saying "objective"?).
Apart from that, it seems like reality holds me "accountable" for the way I lead my life.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... If you believe otherwise then the burden is on you to prove all these ancient sources wrong.
That's not how the burden of proof works - the burden is on the positive claim, i.e. that Moses existed; it's for claimants to establish that the ancient sources are reliable and describing - beyond reasonable doubt - a real figure rather than a myth. There's clearly still a great deal of doubt about the historicity of Moses. Naturally, it's very difficult to establish, but that's ancient history for you.
 
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Skreeper

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Sorry, I thought we were specifically talking about objectivity - things always being bad or good, like your earlier example of it being objectively bad if the earth could no longer sustain life.

Oh now I see why we're talking past each other. You are using the word "objectivity" differently then I do.

Let me explain:

If something is objective then it is the case independent of anybody's personal opinion.
If something is absolute it is the case in all circumstances.

When we're talking about morality or well-being then I'm always addressing the objectivity and not the concept of absolutes. I have the feeling you are saying the it is absolute that being alive is good which I reject based on the fact that there are examples where I consider it better to be dead than alive.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Right. Hence, it's objectively good if life can be sustained forever, enter God.
God doesn't come into it. That was a qualified objective proposition concerning human welfare. The 'good' requires a context. IOW, if the goal is human welfare, it is objectively good that life on Earth continues.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You're confusing two different propositions (and equivocating the good with goodness). Just because it is objectively good for human welfare if life on Earth continues, that doesn't mean any (or all) human life is the experience of goodness. But in any case, although, when living, it is better to experience goodness than not to experience goodness, death is the absence of all experience, not just goodness - there is no good or bad (or anything) once you are dead.
 
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MrNoodle

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There was a time when I was an atheist. I didn't know or could see things the way that I do now. You can attribute this to people growing and changing over time. A good example would be -

You can loose your keys, and seemingly look right at them without seeing them. So you search everywhere to find them. Some people who search do in fact find them. Others do not for whatever personal reason. Some people choose to not search at all.

I was not looking for God when I found him. But I had what I would attribute to a religious experience. The details are not important because they would not mean anything to you. But once I realized my different perspective, it just changed everything. You the reader of my words are being communicated to by God right now. You just might not realize it. Its ok if you don't. Because you have to figure out your perspective to be able to realize that it is in fact happening. You have to search for God to find him. Here's another example -

I have a friend who chooses to not seek God because his faith lies in devil worship. I tried talking with him about God. He is completely blind to anything beyond his perspective. He had a drama filled childhood, which led to his anti God views. I do in fact understand how he got there. I was there the night when he chose to reject God. I didn't know what I was seeing at that point in time from my youth. But a hurt child makes blind choices. Today he is far too gone to ever see or accept any other perspective. He simply can't rationalize God. Others on this forum have talked about demons and such. They perfectly described my friend while using bible quotes even though they have never met him.

So my point is that YOU are the reason why you can or can not see God. Because God is not about going to church, or reading the bible. You having a relationship with God (and knowing he exists) is about who you are as a person, your growth and personal change, and you proving to God that you want a relationship with him.
 
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Skreeper

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But I had what I would attribute to a religious experience.

How did you verify that it was indeed a religious experience? Is there a chance it could have been something else?


What about people who believed they had a genuine relationship with God for many years but became atheists after they discovered they never had a good reason to believe? What about people who continuously want to know God and want to have a relationship with him but he is not revealing himself?
Why deserves Paul a Damascus road experience and all the rest of us have to go by vague experiences, visions and hearsay?
 
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MrNoodle

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Skreeper, I'm sorry brother, but your reply is exactly my point. But I promise you one thing, once you truly know God, you will realize your past mistakes. Others can argue with you tit for tat. But that is not my way. I speak my truth and you can choose to agree or disagree.

I found this interesting - Does god exist? Some scientists think they have proof | Opinion
 
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Chriliman

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There's no difference between objectivity and absolutes if both are known to be the case.

Whether it's knowable or not is the key to understanding that it's always the case or always good.

If an objective or absolute truth is forever unknowable, then it's irrelevant to those who have the ability to know.
 
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Chriliman

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God doesn't come into it. That was a qualified objective proposition concerning human welfare. The 'good' requires a context. IOW, if the goal is human welfare, it is objectively good that life on Earth continues.

I know. It's good that life on earth continues, indefinitely. If life on earth ends at any point in the future, that would be a bad thing.
 
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dmmesdale

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The positive case for the existence of Moses has already been made in previous posts which have been ignored. That being since we have multiple independent accounts attesting to the existence of Moses then why were they all wrong and the moderns, far removed from antiquity right in their assertions of mythical Moses? If they assert mythical Moses then the burden shifts to them using standard historical methods, not made up ones selectively applied. You don't make a case by ignoring evidence because you don't like the historicity. That is the methods of history deniers.

The same deniers who asserted mythical King David and were proven wrong. If they were wrong about King David then why are they right about mythical Moses?
 
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dmmesdale

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God doesn't come into it. That was a qualified objective proposition concerning human welfare. The 'good' requires a context. IOW, if the goal is human welfare, it is objectively good that life on Earth continues.
Show where the universe benefits by the continuation of human life. How, for example, does gravity benefit?
 
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Skreeper

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Show where it is the universe benefits by the continuation of human life. How does gravity benefit?

We're talking about human welfare and not the welfare of gravity. With the goal of human well-being / welfare in mind it is objectively good that our planet continues to support life.
 
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Skreeper

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I'm sorry that you do not wish to investigate whether or not your reason for belief in your god is justified.
I want to know if my beliefs are true or not. Don't you?
 
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Chriliman

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Im not confusing anything, I know it would be objectively good if life continued forever sans suffering and death.

It's no coincidence that God has already promosed this is will eventually happen, since His will is always good.
 
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Skreeper

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It's no coincidence that God has already promosed this is will eventually happen, since His will is always good.

Is it objectively good if life continues forever in hell including the suffering?
 
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