How to properly defend creationism.

[BananaSlug]

I hate it when I'm trying to point out to someone the many differences between the order of God's creation vis-a-vis the order of nature's way (e.g. the earth before the sun, plants before the sun), and they want to interject with stuff like, "Why did God create Satan?" and "Why did God have to send the Flood?", and other issues that don't apply.

Ah, but why God created Satan is a creation issue as well. Was Satan created before God created the universe or during the creation week? It never specifically states in the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ah, but why God created Satan is a creation issue as well. Was Satan created before God created the universe or during the creation week? It never specifically states in the Bible.

It doesn't, huh?

Lucifer, not Satan, and all the other angels were created before God even created the earth in Genesis 1, as we see them rejoicing when the earth was created.

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[BananaSlug]

Wasn't the universe created before the earth? What if God created the angels when he created the universe, then made the earth and the angels rejoiced? It never says when he created the angels!

 

[AV1611VET]

Wasn't the universe created before the earth?

No --- the universe --- or "second heaven" --- wasn't populated until Day Four.

What if God created the angels when he created the universe, then made the earth and the angels rejoiced?

Nope ---

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Now watch this ---

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Notice anything different after the Creation Week?

Heaven is singular in Genesis 1:1, but plural in Genesis 2:1.

It never says when he created the angels!

No --- but again, we see them present at what would chronologically be Genesis 1:1.

1. God creates Heaven.
2. God creates the angels.
3. God creates the earth, and the angels rejoice.

 

[BananaSlug]

So they were created during the creation week.

 

[AV1611VET]

So they were created during the creation week.

Yup --- Day One --- to be exact.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Notice anything different after the Creation Week?

Heaven is singular in Genesis 1:1, but plural in Genesis 2:1

Supporting the idea that we're reading two separate stories from two separate authors.

 

[BananaSlug]

Considering the major differences in the story from Gen 1 and Gen 2 it is not surprising to notice an "s" at the end of heaven. How about focusing on the chronological differences in creation between the two chapters rather than on the plurality of "heaven"?

Genesis 1 orders the creation as follows

1. Land and seas
2. Plants and trees
3. Sun, moon and stars
4. Sea creatures and birds
5. Land animals
6. Man and woman, in God's own image

Genesis 2 orders the creation as

1. Land and water (or mist) - at this point it seems there is nothing growing
2. Man, who is alone
3. Plants and trees
4. Animals (birds and land animals)
5. Woman (from parts of the man)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Supporting the idea that we're reading two separate stories from two separate authors.

But those two verses (Gen 1:1 & 2:1) would belong to the first of those two stories.

 

[AV1611VET]

Genesis 1 orders the creation as follows

1. Land and seas
2. Plants and trees
3. Sun, moon and stars
4. Sea creatures and birds
5. Land animals
6. Man and woman, in God's own image

Genesis 2 orders the creation as

1. Land and water (or mist) - at this point it seems there is nothing growing
2. Man, who is alone
3. Plants and trees
4. Animals (birds and land animals)
5. Woman (from parts of the man)

BananaSlug, let's make a picture, shall we?

Get a big sheet of white paper and do the following:

1. Draw one giant continent in the middle of a big ocean --- let's call that continent Eden.
2. Draw plants and trees over much of the continent.
3. Draw the sun, moon, and stars in the sky.
4. Draw fish in the sea (no whales) and birds in the air.
5. Draw beasts of the earth.
6. Draw a man --- and stop.

Now let's go to Phase II of our picture - (Genesis 2).

1. Find a bare spot on your picture to draw a garden.
2. Cut the man out of where you drew him, and paste him there.
3. Draw plants and trees in this garden (with two special trees).
4. Draw beasts of the field.
5. Parade the beasts past Adam to see what he will name them.
6. Put Adam to sleep.
7. etc.

What's the problem?

 

[Nathan Poe]

BananaSlug, let's make a picture, shall we?


Get a big sheet of white paper and do the following:

1. Draw one giant continent in the middle of a big ocean --- let's call that continent Eden.
2. Draw plants and trees over much of the continent.
3. Draw the sun, moon, and stars in the sky.
4. Draw fish in the sea (no whales) and birds in the air.
5. Draw beasts of the earth.
6. Draw a man --- and stop.

Now let's go to Phase II of our picture - (Genesis 2).

1. Find a bare spot on your picture to draw a garden.
2. Cut the man out of where you drew him, and paste him there.
3. Draw plants and trees in this garden (with two special trees).
4. Draw beasts of the field.
5. Parade the beasts past Adam to see what he will name them.
6. Put Adam to sleep.
7. etc.

What's the problem?

The problem is we're not painting a picture -- we're discussing events which you would like us to believe were historical, even though "the Author" can't even keep His stories straight as to which "historical" events happened first.

Genesis 1 makes God look as powerful and omnipotent as we'd expect Him to be -- Gen 2 has Him goofing up left, right and center.

 

[AV1611VET]

The problem is we're not painting a picture -- we're discussing events which you would like us to believe were historical, even though "the Author" can't even keep His stories straight as to which "historical" events happened first.

Genesis 1 makes God look as powerful and omnipotent as we'd expect Him to be -- Gen 2 has Him goofing up left, right and center.

Believe me, if you can paint it on a 2-dimensional canvas, He can paint it on a 3-dimensional one.

 

[BananaSlug]

BananaSlug, let's make a picture, shall we?


Get a big sheet of white paper and do the following:

1. Draw one giant continent in the middle of a big ocean --- let's call that continent Eden.
2. Draw plants and trees over much of the continent.
3. Draw the sun, moon, and stars in the sky.
4. Draw fish in the sea (no whales) and birds in the air.
5. Draw beasts of the earth.
6. Draw a man --- and stop.

Now let's go to Phase II of our picture - (Genesis 2).

1. Find a bare spot on your picture to draw a garden.
2. Cut the man out of where you drew him, and paste him there.
3. Draw plants and trees in this garden (with two special trees).
4. Draw beasts of the field.
5. Parade the beasts past Adam to see what he will name them.
6. Put Adam to sleep.
7. etc.

What's the problem?

Genesis 1:1-27
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


Genesis 2:4-23
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [e] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [f] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [g] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [h] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [i] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [j] '
for she was taken out of man."

In Genesis 2 God formed man before he made any plants. In Genesis 1 he formed man after he formed plants. In Genesis 2 it seems man was formed before any other living creature.

 

[AV1611VET]

In Genesis 2 God formed man before he made any plants. In Genesis 1 he formed man after he formed plants. In Genesis 2 it seems man was formed before any other living creature.

Since all you're doing is repeating yourself, I'll do the same thing:

There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 --- end of story.

 

[BananaSlug]

So creating plants before man in Genesis 1 = creating man before plants in Genesis 2?
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

You are saying that Genesis 1 does not contradict Genesis 2? In Genesis 2 it clearly states that there were no plants on the earth when God created Adam. This does contradict the fact that in Genesis 1 God makes the plants on the 3rd day and Adam on the 6th day.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Believe me, if you can paint it on a 2-dimensional canvas, He can paint it on a 3-dimensional one.

Your painting analogy is flawed -- is your Fundie Pride keeping you from seeing this?

We're talking about two separate "paintings" of two clearly separate scenes, each painted in four dimensions -- have you forgotten or chosen to wilfully ignore time?

Looks like two separate artists to any reasonable person.

(this is where you tell reason to take a hike)

 

[Nathan Poe]

Since all you're doing is repeating yourself, I'll do the same thing:

There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 --- end of story.

Since all you're doing is being wrong, keep it up.

 

[AV1611VET]

So creating plants before man in Genesis 1 = creating man before plants in Genesis 2?[/color]

Creating plants before man in Genesis 1 = creating man before plants in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2.

Remember?

I said to find a bare spot on your picture to draw a garden?

God grew plants in Genesis 1 --- then created Adam --- then grew plants again in Genesis 2.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Then again in Genesis 2 ---

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Cabal]

Creating plants before man in Genesis 1 = creating man before plants in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2.

Remember?

I said to find a bare spot on your picture to draw a garden?

God grew plants in Genesis 1 --- then created Adam --- then grew plants again in Genesis 2.Then again in Genesis 2 ---

And "very good" means "perfect", right AV?

 

[BananaSlug]

You are ignoring this obvious verse:

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

As you see, the bolded, underlined verse is one sentence. Focus on the blue. It says that God created man while "no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up."