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How to Observe the Sabbath
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hello Cross Movement
You said,
The gospel was spread by Jews. Peter, Paul , Mark , Matthew etc and in no place in the New Testament did they say the Jewish Sabbath is binding on the believer today. Massive amounts of instruction on every facet of Christian life,devotion ,worship and service and not one little peep about having to worship on the Sabbath day and no other. Not one. It is the roaring silence of the New Testament concerning Sabbath worship that alone defeats your arguments.
You and the other SDA's constantly argue of the great importance of the Sabbath in the Christians life today. If it even was a fraction as important as the SDA's claim it is then most assuredly the Holy Spirit would have seen to it that there would have been at least one mention of how significant this one day is in the New Testament writings. And yet it is not there is it. And it was Jews who gave us the New Testament.
yours in Christ
DEU58
You said,
The gospel was spread by Jews. Peter, Paul , Mark , Matthew etc and in no place in the New Testament did they say the Jewish Sabbath is binding on the believer today. Massive amounts of instruction on every facet of Christian life,devotion ,worship and service and not one little peep about having to worship on the Sabbath day and no other. Not one. It is the roaring silence of the New Testament concerning Sabbath worship that alone defeats your arguments.
You and the other SDA's constantly argue of the great importance of the Sabbath in the Christians life today. If it even was a fraction as important as the SDA's claim it is then most assuredly the Holy Spirit would have seen to it that there would have been at least one mention of how significant this one day is in the New Testament writings. And yet it is not there is it. And it was Jews who gave us the New Testament.
yours in Christ
DEU58
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CrossMovement
Well-Known Member
A letter wrote to Pope Pius XI , May 22, 1934
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomaston , Georgia
May 22, 1934
Pope Pius XI
Rome , Italy
Dear Sir:
Is the accusation true that Prostestants accuse you of ? They say you changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the so-called Christian Sunday : Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the change and by what authority ?
Yours very truly
J.L. Day (signed)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer :
The Catholic Extension Magazine
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pope Pius XI)
Dear Sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday , I wish to draw your attention to the facts.
(1)That Prostestants , who accept the bible as the only rule of faith and religion , should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not , but on the contrary observe Sunday , stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
(2)We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say this church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial Laws of the Old Testament ; and hence , we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say "Yes, the Church made the change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance the Friday abstinence, the un-married priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages , the regulations of Catholic marriages, and a thousand other laws.
(3) We also say that of all the protestants, the Seventh-Day Adventist are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings.It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches , in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sunday , of which there is nothing in the Bible.
With Best Wishes,
Peter R. Tramer , Editor (signed)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
this catholic writer (under the blessing of Pope Pius XI) say that they changed the sabbath , and by so affirm that if you believe that the bible is the only rule of faith , you should observed the saturday sabbath. They (catholics) do not believe the bible as the only true rule of faith and religion. Now why follow a catholic traditon if you do not believe in the living church ? The people who changed the day of the Sabbath , are aware that if you believe the bible as the only rule of faith and religion , you should do the Saturday Sabbath.
they did not change the Sabbath by the bible ... they changed it by the living church ... I respect their beliefs about the living church , but , I do not believe in the living church ... I believe that the bible is the only rule of faith and religion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomaston , Georgia
May 22, 1934
Pope Pius XI
Rome , Italy
Dear Sir:
Is the accusation true that Prostestants accuse you of ? They say you changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the so-called Christian Sunday : Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the change and by what authority ?
Yours very truly
J.L. Day (signed)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer :
The Catholic Extension Magazine
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pope Pius XI)
Dear Sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday , I wish to draw your attention to the facts.
(1)That Prostestants , who accept the bible as the only rule of faith and religion , should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not , but on the contrary observe Sunday , stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
(2)We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say this church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial Laws of the Old Testament ; and hence , we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say "Yes, the Church made the change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance the Friday abstinence, the un-married priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages , the regulations of Catholic marriages, and a thousand other laws.
(3) We also say that of all the protestants, the Seventh-Day Adventist are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings.It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches , in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sunday , of which there is nothing in the Bible.
With Best Wishes,
Peter R. Tramer , Editor (signed)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
this catholic writer (under the blessing of Pope Pius XI) say that they changed the sabbath , and by so affirm that if you believe that the bible is the only rule of faith , you should observed the saturday sabbath. They (catholics) do not believe the bible as the only true rule of faith and religion. Now why follow a catholic traditon if you do not believe in the living church ? The people who changed the day of the Sabbath , are aware that if you believe the bible as the only rule of faith and religion , you should do the Saturday Sabbath.
they did not change the Sabbath by the bible ... they changed it by the living church ... I respect their beliefs about the living church , but , I do not believe in the living church ... I believe that the bible is the only rule of faith and religion.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hello Cross Movement.
There are a couple of problems with your "proof".
One, the "OFFICIAL" decree to change from Saturday to Sunday went out in 135 ad in Rome long before there ever was a Pope. At that time the decree was only in effect with in the area of authority of the Roman bishop within his own bishopric.
It was not a church wide decree. The RCC tries to lay claim to every event that has ever happened in the Christian churches history. Do you also accept their claim that Peter was the first Catholic pope? There was only one church in existence then. The church truly was universal but there was no single authority. The early church was divided into autonomous bishoprics managed by individual bishops. There was no central authority as there is in the modern RCC. Infact the RCC did not even exist then.
Two, Look at what is said in the second paragraph.
The Catholic church viewed the Saturday Sabbath as part of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament, Just as The mainstream Protestant churches have always done and do today. Do you really think that after 500 years of Protestant Bible history and scholarship that they would not have figured out for themselves that the Sabbath is really still binding on today's believers and that the RCC was wrong?
After all they did away with the all the other Catholic trappings because they knew it was not Scriptural but according to you SDA's they do not have the ability to understand the Sabbath truth.
Notice also the statement that Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith whereas the Protestants do. And still the Protestants see no Biblical reason due to New Testament teachings to go back to demanding that all must worship on the Jewish Sabbath to please God.
yours in Christ
deu58
There are a couple of problems with your "proof".
One, the "OFFICIAL" decree to change from Saturday to Sunday went out in 135 ad in Rome long before there ever was a Pope. At that time the decree was only in effect with in the area of authority of the Roman bishop within his own bishopric.
It was not a church wide decree. The RCC tries to lay claim to every event that has ever happened in the Christian churches history. Do you also accept their claim that Peter was the first Catholic pope? There was only one church in existence then. The church truly was universal but there was no single authority. The early church was divided into autonomous bishoprics managed by individual bishops. There was no central authority as there is in the modern RCC. Infact the RCC did not even exist then.
Two, Look at what is said in the second paragraph.
The Catholic church viewed the Saturday Sabbath as part of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament, Just as The mainstream Protestant churches have always done and do today. Do you really think that after 500 years of Protestant Bible history and scholarship that they would not have figured out for themselves that the Sabbath is really still binding on today's believers and that the RCC was wrong?
After all they did away with the all the other Catholic trappings because they knew it was not Scriptural but according to you SDA's they do not have the ability to understand the Sabbath truth.
Notice also the statement that Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith whereas the Protestants do. And still the Protestants see no Biblical reason due to New Testament teachings to go back to demanding that all must worship on the Jewish Sabbath to please God.
yours in Christ
deu58
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deu58deu58 said:
The fact remains there is no where in the New Testament that says the Sabbath has been changed.
There is just no verse that says so.
Until one is found then I suggest we stick to what we know is right.
That is the 7th day Sabbath.
Spin as much as you like it is not there.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hello Symes
You used an analogy of you giving your wife permission to drive as fast as she wants through little towns etc. I will use your own analogy.
You can tell your wife she is exempt from the speed limit but the truth is you have no authority to do so. It is a higher authority that has established the driving rules. When you go for your drivers license you must study these rules. The rules are clear and plain so there can be no misunderstanding.
The roads are plainly marked with signs for identification and safety. If new rules and signs are introduced then the old instruction manual is superceded by a new manual . There may be similarities but they are not the same. If you refuse to accept the teaching and the authority of the new manual regarding the old manual as superior and tell your wife to do the same obviously you will run into confusion and trouble.
The road is clearly marked with signs to keep you safe and within the legal bounds of what the higher authority has established. In the New Testament the roads are clearly marked to keep the believer safe from violating the will of God. There are no signs in the New Testament that say Stop, Observe Sabbath here! In fact there are signs that say the opposite.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
You SDA's claim that this does not mean that the Jewish Sabbath is no longer binding and yet you do so only on your own authority. No where in the New Testament can you find any indication that the Jewish Sabbath is not included in these verses. There is no sign what so ever in the New Testament that the Gentile believer must keep the Jewish Sabbath. You have to go back to the old manual.
The SDA's say Jesus is our example. Where is your beard and front locks? Do you wear phylacteries? Jesus honored all the sabbaths and holy days. Do you? Thadman rightfully says this is Torah and Jesus was 100% obedient to the Torah. Are you? Why do you single out the Saturday Sabbath and say " See , we follow the example of Christ" when truthfully you do not. In fact you do not even come close.
Your battle cry of "show us where the Sabbath was abolished" has worn thin. You have been told and shown by many time and time again for months that it was not abolished. It was fulfilled. But like a small child who sticks his fingers in his ears and says" I am not listening no no no I can't hear you!!!!! "you completely ignore the answers people give to your demands to "prove to you" what you claim cannot be proved.
Yours in Christ
Deu58
After 4 months you still have not come up with a new response? You should change your screen name to the cut and paste kid. It is the exact same non response that you gave everybody over and over 4 months ago.
You used an analogy of you giving your wife permission to drive as fast as she wants through little towns etc. I will use your own analogy.
You can tell your wife she is exempt from the speed limit but the truth is you have no authority to do so. It is a higher authority that has established the driving rules. When you go for your drivers license you must study these rules. The rules are clear and plain so there can be no misunderstanding.
The roads are plainly marked with signs for identification and safety. If new rules and signs are introduced then the old instruction manual is superceded by a new manual . There may be similarities but they are not the same. If you refuse to accept the teaching and the authority of the new manual regarding the old manual as superior and tell your wife to do the same obviously you will run into confusion and trouble.
The road is clearly marked with signs to keep you safe and within the legal bounds of what the higher authority has established. In the New Testament the roads are clearly marked to keep the believer safe from violating the will of God. There are no signs in the New Testament that say Stop, Observe Sabbath here! In fact there are signs that say the opposite.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
You SDA's claim that this does not mean that the Jewish Sabbath is no longer binding and yet you do so only on your own authority. No where in the New Testament can you find any indication that the Jewish Sabbath is not included in these verses. There is no sign what so ever in the New Testament that the Gentile believer must keep the Jewish Sabbath. You have to go back to the old manual.
The SDA's say Jesus is our example. Where is your beard and front locks? Do you wear phylacteries? Jesus honored all the sabbaths and holy days. Do you? Thadman rightfully says this is Torah and Jesus was 100% obedient to the Torah. Are you? Why do you single out the Saturday Sabbath and say " See , we follow the example of Christ" when truthfully you do not. In fact you do not even come close.
Your battle cry of "show us where the Sabbath was abolished" has worn thin. You have been told and shown by many time and time again for months that it was not abolished. It was fulfilled. But like a small child who sticks his fingers in his ears and says" I am not listening no no no I can't hear you!!!!! "you completely ignore the answers people give to your demands to "prove to you" what you claim cannot be proved.
Yours in Christ
Deu58
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Breanainn said:
I hate to disagree, but think you are looking for something that you can do to earn salvation by making Sabbath keeping a requirement of salvation. You are asking for a legal basis and if not met can not be saved. You do not accept the blood sacrifice providing righteousness. You are not looking for the truth but for converts.
trucker
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Due58
That is the problem, there has not been a new manual written.
There is no evidence to say the Sabbath has been changed.
If there was it would be there for all to see.
What you and many here say is evidence is no evidence at all.
There is just nothing there to say the Sabbath has been changed.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hello Symes
And there you are with your fingers in your ears. You keep chanting changed, changed changed and we keep trying to tell you no not changed,IT WAS FULFILLED You have no concept of what I am saying to you. Your churches doctrine is all that matters to you.
I mean you know insult Symes because you should know from our PM's that I like and even respect you to a point as a Christian man. But for all the SDA fears of Sunday keepers condemning you for keeping the Sabbath it is the SDA's who actually condemn everybody else.
Outside of perhaps a few small lunatic fringe groups there are no Sunday keeping Christians who judge you for keeping the Jewish Sabbath or would tolerate mass persecution of the SDA Church for doing so.
The SDA universal Mark of the Beast /Sunday law is just another failed EGW prophecy.
"The National Sunday Law, Fact or Fiction? By Dirk Anderson
By the late 1880s the end appeared imminent to Adventists. The reason they believed the end was imminent was because a law was being considered before the United States Congress in the late 1880's which would have made Sunday a nationally recognized holiday. In 1886, Mrs. White warned of the soon-coming end:
(Historical Sketches, p. 156)
The end of all things is at hand. The time of trouble is about to come upon the people of God. Then it is that the decree will go forth forbidding those who keep the Sabbath of the Lord to buy or sell, and threatening them with punishment, and even death, if they do not observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath.
Then the unexpected happened. The Sunday law was defeated by Congress. While there may have been more than one reason the law was rejected, it was apparent that some in Congress felt the law would violate the separation between church and state. Besides, if the law was enacted, it would have likely been struck down by the Supreme Court. After this event, the Sunday Law movement lost steam and gradually turned its attention to other issues. By the early 1900s it was beginning to appear unlikely that a Sunday law was going to be passed any time in the near future...............
All of your doctrines are based on the visions of EGW. These prophecies were supposed to come pass before she died in 1915.
I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."--1T 131, 132 (1856). {LDE 36.3}
Because time is short, we should work with diligence and double energy. Our children may never enter college.--3T 159 (1872). {LDE 36.4}
It is really not wise to have children now. Time is short, the perils of the last days are upon us, and the little children will be largely swept off before this.--Letter 48, 1876. {LDE 36.5}
She got one third of it right. They all became food for worms including herself. None were victims of the last plague's nor were any translated at the return of Christ. And she herself states she was shown these things.
She saw in vision that she was to be one of the living 144,000 to enter the Holy Temple in heaven.
Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {CET 63.2}
This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The wonderful things I there saw, I cannot describe. Oh, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the better world.
Notice that she claims that she wishes she could speak Canaanite apparently referring to this as being the language of Heaven? Does it not strike you as just a little strange that the language of a people that God condemned as an abomination and commanded that they be destroyed of the face of the earth is the language of Heaven?
Now I know you will say you only use the bible but I know that is not so. You and every SDA church use the bible as interepreted by the Spirit of Prophecy. I know you will cry foul and say this is not so but your own church proudly claims this is really true.
Review and Herald Supplement, August 14, 1883.
It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is the Christ, through this agency, giving real meaning of his own words.
Arthur White, grandson of Ellen White, and for years the head of the Ellen G. White Estate, made the following claim:
Seventh-day Adventists are uniquely fortunate in approaching the question of inspiration of the prophets. We are not left to find our way, drawing our conclusions from writings of two thousand years and more ago, that have come down to us through varied transcriptions and translations. With us it is an almost contemporary matter, for we had a prophet in our midst. It is generally granted by the careful student of her works that the experience of Ellen G. White was no different from that of the prophets of old. What is more, rather than having in our possession only relatively few chapters of a handful of letters as is the case of the extant records of the Bible prophets, we have the full range of Ellen G. Whites writings, penned through a period of 70 years. She wrote in the English language, so we are not confronted with the problems of translation. The Ellen G. White Writings, p. 15.
So whether you admit it or not, it is true. And it is upon all these shifting sands that you take your doctrinal stance.
Yours in Christ
DEU58
And there you are with your fingers in your ears. You keep chanting changed, changed changed and we keep trying to tell you no not changed,IT WAS FULFILLED You have no concept of what I am saying to you. Your churches doctrine is all that matters to you.
I mean you know insult Symes because you should know from our PM's that I like and even respect you to a point as a Christian man. But for all the SDA fears of Sunday keepers condemning you for keeping the Sabbath it is the SDA's who actually condemn everybody else.
Outside of perhaps a few small lunatic fringe groups there are no Sunday keeping Christians who judge you for keeping the Jewish Sabbath or would tolerate mass persecution of the SDA Church for doing so.
The SDA universal Mark of the Beast /Sunday law is just another failed EGW prophecy.
"The National Sunday Law, Fact or Fiction? By Dirk Anderson
By the late 1880s the end appeared imminent to Adventists. The reason they believed the end was imminent was because a law was being considered before the United States Congress in the late 1880's which would have made Sunday a nationally recognized holiday. In 1886, Mrs. White warned of the soon-coming end:
(Historical Sketches, p. 156)
The end of all things is at hand. The time of trouble is about to come upon the people of God. Then it is that the decree will go forth forbidding those who keep the Sabbath of the Lord to buy or sell, and threatening them with punishment, and even death, if they do not observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath.
Then the unexpected happened. The Sunday law was defeated by Congress. While there may have been more than one reason the law was rejected, it was apparent that some in Congress felt the law would violate the separation between church and state. Besides, if the law was enacted, it would have likely been struck down by the Supreme Court. After this event, the Sunday Law movement lost steam and gradually turned its attention to other issues. By the early 1900s it was beginning to appear unlikely that a Sunday law was going to be passed any time in the near future...............
All of your doctrines are based on the visions of EGW. These prophecies were supposed to come pass before she died in 1915.
I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."--1T 131, 132 (1856). {LDE 36.3}
Because time is short, we should work with diligence and double energy. Our children may never enter college.--3T 159 (1872). {LDE 36.4}
It is really not wise to have children now. Time is short, the perils of the last days are upon us, and the little children will be largely swept off before this.--Letter 48, 1876. {LDE 36.5}
She got one third of it right. They all became food for worms including herself. None were victims of the last plague's nor were any translated at the return of Christ. And she herself states she was shown these things.
She saw in vision that she was to be one of the living 144,000 to enter the Holy Temple in heaven.
Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {CET 63.2}
This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The wonderful things I there saw, I cannot describe. Oh, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the better world.
Notice that she claims that she wishes she could speak Canaanite apparently referring to this as being the language of Heaven? Does it not strike you as just a little strange that the language of a people that God condemned as an abomination and commanded that they be destroyed of the face of the earth is the language of Heaven?
Now I know you will say you only use the bible but I know that is not so. You and every SDA church use the bible as interepreted by the Spirit of Prophecy. I know you will cry foul and say this is not so but your own church proudly claims this is really true.
Review and Herald Supplement, August 14, 1883.
It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is the Christ, through this agency, giving real meaning of his own words.
Arthur White, grandson of Ellen White, and for years the head of the Ellen G. White Estate, made the following claim:
Seventh-day Adventists are uniquely fortunate in approaching the question of inspiration of the prophets. We are not left to find our way, drawing our conclusions from writings of two thousand years and more ago, that have come down to us through varied transcriptions and translations. With us it is an almost contemporary matter, for we had a prophet in our midst. It is generally granted by the careful student of her works that the experience of Ellen G. White was no different from that of the prophets of old. What is more, rather than having in our possession only relatively few chapters of a handful of letters as is the case of the extant records of the Bible prophets, we have the full range of Ellen G. Whites writings, penned through a period of 70 years. She wrote in the English language, so we are not confronted with the problems of translation. The Ellen G. White Writings, p. 15.
So whether you admit it or not, it is true. And it is upon all these shifting sands that you take your doctrinal stance.
Yours in Christ
DEU58
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