How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

david shelby · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
Does Jesus have anything to do with the completion of the 70 weeks in your view?

If you take the first view I outlined, then clearly its all about him, as that paragraph shows:

If you take the position that the messiah in Daniel 9 is Jesus, the 7 years would be the 3 years of his ministry and first 3 or 4 years of the church, and the "he" who is the subject of the "confirming" would be the messiah, not "the prince to come." It also would then be the messiah who would cut off the burnt offering and such in the middle (after the first 3 years) because they would be cut off validity-wise by Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice. Also, the phrase "and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator" would refer to the animal sacrifices that continued between Jesus' death and the final destruction of the temple.

That is one of what I think are two defensible views. But what I deny is that it has anything to do with an antichrist. That to me is just silly.

ewq1938 · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
How do those verses show that the ten kings have kingdoms, plural, when it says their kingdom singular in the text?

Each king has a kingdom, so each one gives their kingdom to the beast which doesn't mean they lose the kingdom. It means the AC has access to their kingdom's resources etc.

Rev_17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Here again, the ten kings will each receive a kingdom.

It is one person who becomes the beast.

Not the first beast. That is ten kingdoms and kings and 7 mountains...Rev 17 does not add another person as you do. Only the second beast is a person according to the book of Rev.

Of the seven heads on the beast, the little horn person is the one head mortally wounded - i.e. killed -

The little horn isn't one of the heads...no one is a head. The heads are mountains not persons. And the AC is neither wounded nor dies not until being defeated by Christ.

Likewise, envision the mortally wounded head, but healed head in Revelation 13, as a large head. And the other six heads as smaller heads.

The text doesn't address the size of the heads so we shouldn't either. You are incorrectly identifying the heads as people when the text does not. The metaphors have to be correct before understanding any of these things.

ewq1938 · Mar 30, 2019

tranquil said:
the beast from the earth says to worship the mortally head wounded individual

There is no mortally wounded individual in the book. The wounded head represents an area of land where war happened and it was healed.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

david shelby said:
Only John uses the term, and he doesn't use it that way. Rather, the concept of a false Christ is just called that, like when Jesus says in Matthew 24:25 "For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray" -- notice how many will coming claiming to be Christ or Messiah, not just one central big bad.

No, false Christs are persons who claim to be Jesus returned. Examples are Vissarion in Russia, John Miller of Australia, and Jose Luis Miranda. There are plenty of You Tube videos on each.

Them that John was talking to in 1John2:18 were already aware that antichrist will come. Where did they get that idea? Because it was something Jesus spoke about in John 5:43 and taught by the disciples.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

So antichrist means there are many antichrists (deniers that Jesus had flesh), not one big bad false messianic claimant.

No, John was likening them to Antichrist because they were displaying the same characteristics.

david shelby said:
So the modern "antichrist" notion is completely false, and is a misuse of the scriptural term antichrist, which John clearly defines:

2 John 1:7 (NRSV)
"Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!"

Again, John is likening such person as having the same characteristic to the coming Antichrist (singular, not Antichrists plural).

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

david shelby · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
No, false Christs are persons who claim to be Jesus returned. Examples are Vissarion in Russia, John Miller of Australia, and Jose Luis Miranda. There are plenty of You Tube videos on each.

There's not much real difference in claiming to be the messiah or claiming to be Jesus returned, because in either case the claim is to be the messiah.

Douggg said:
Them that John was talking to in 1John2:18 were already aware that antichrist will come. Where did they get that idea? Because it was something Jesus spoke about in John 5:43 and taught by the disciples.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Well that was clearly Bar Kokhba being referred to there.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Each king has a kingdom, so each one gives their kingdom to the beast which doesn't mean they lose the kingdom. It means the AC has access to their kingdom's resources etc.

It's one kingdom, not ten kingdoms. The one kingdom of the ten kings is the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

ewq1938 said:
The little horn isn't one of the heads...no one is a head. The heads are mountains not persons. And the AC is neither wounded nor dies not until being defeated by Christ.

There are no seven heads in Daniel 7, only one head.

The concept of little horn person has to be carried forward to the Revelation description in some way...

since there is NO little horn in the Revelation description, and all of the other six heads have been accounted for - the little horn person of Daniel 7 has to be the yet to come 7th head on the Revelation beast.

The 7th head - is the little horn come to power in Revelation 12 with 7 years left. Then In Revelation 13, with 42 months to go, the 7th head, the little horn person will have been wounded and come back to life as the beast person.
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It is giving you the progression of the person. He comes to power as the little horn, before the 7 years begin, in Revelation 12.

Then after Gog/Magog, he comes riding into the middle east as the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6,
as the prince who shall come, who is given a crown in Revelation 6, that is anointed the King of Israel, the Antichrist by the false prophet. He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant and begins the seven years.

Then before the 42 months begin in Revelation 13, he will have been killed for claiming to be God in 2Thessalonians2:3-4, Ezekiel 28:1-10. And then brought back to life, Isaiah14:19-20, to become the beast person.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

david shelby said:
There's not much real difference in claiming to be the messiah or claiming to be Jesus returned, because in either case the claim is to be the messiah.

The difference is false Christs will claim to be Jesus returned. Just like the examples I gave you.

Differently, the Antichrist will not claim to be Jesus, but will claim to be the messiah instead of Jesus, and speak against Jesus. Which is why John was likening them who had departed Christianity and were speaking against Jesus as antichrists.

david shelby · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
The difference is false Christs will claim to be Jesus returned. Just like the examples I gave you.

So does that mean Sneerson who is being hailed by Chabad Lubavichters as messiah is not a false christ because he didn't claim to be Jesus specifically?

Douggg said:
Differently, the Antichrist will not claim to be Jesus, but will claim to be the messiah instead of Jesus, and speak against Jesus. Which is why John was likening them who had departed Christianity and were speaking against Jesus as antichrists.

But Sneerson already died though, so why are you still looking for an antichrist? He came and you missed him.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

david shelby said:
Well that was clearly Bar Kokhba being referred to there.

Simon Bar Kokhba was never anointed the King of Israel - in order to be the Antichrist.

What the Jews did in the first century was to reject Jesus to be their King of Israel.

The Antichrist will be someone who will be embraced by the Jews and actually be anointed the King of Israel.
Hence the role of the false prophet - to anoint him.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

david shelby said:
So does that mean Sneerson who is being hailed by Chabad Lubavichters as messiah is not a false christ because he didn't claim to be Jesus specifically?

No he is not a false Christ. The Jews (Judaism) consider him a failed messiah. That is a person who was a candidate to be the messiah, but failed at the job description.

Some Lubavitchers still hold to R. Scheerson being the messiah, thinking he will return to complete the job description. In doing so, they take a lot of heat from their fellow Jews, saying that is Christianity.

david shelby · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
Simon Bar Kokhba was never anointed the King of Israel - in order to be the Antichrist.

What the Jews did in the first century was to reject Jesus to be their King of Israel.

The Antichrist will be someone who will be embraced by the Jews and actually be anointed the King of Israel.
Hence the role of the false prophet - to anoint him.

You just made that rule up, or Hal Lindsey did. Because antichrist is only mentioned in 1st and 2nd John, and it certainly don't say that.

Douggg · Mar 30, 2019

david shelby said:
You just made that rule up, or Hal Lindsey did. Because antichrist is only mentioned in 1st and 2nd John, and it certainly don't say that.

No I am not making up a rule. I doubt that Hal Lindsey notes that to be the Antichrist, the person has to be anointed the King of Israel in order to be the Antichrist, because I heard recently (about three months ago) Hal Lindsey to refer to the person (when he is in the role of the beast) as being the "final" Antichrist. I hardly ever watch or follow Hal Lindsey. Maybe I will watch about 3 or 4 minutes of a program once or twice at the most, in a year.

Erik Nelson · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
Erik, what translation are you reading from?

NIV ?

Erik Nelson · Mar 30, 2019

Douggg said:
Simon Bar Kokhba was never anointed the King of Israel - in order to be the Antichrist.

What the Jews did in the first century was to reject Jesus to be their King of Israel.

The Antichrist will be someone who will be embraced by the Jews and actually be anointed the King of Israel.
Hence the role of the false prophet - to anoint him.

Well, for starters, first of all. Simon Bar Kochba. Really WAS anointed Messiah by Rabbi Akiva.

also, as observed by Don K Preston in his book LAST DAYS IDENTIFIED. Please read John 6:15.

The Jews did not reject Jesus, he rejected their offer of kingship. Just as he rejected the same offer from the adversary in the desert. Matthew 4. And even from Saint Peter. Matthew 16.

The kingship offered to him was a rejection of God, the father. Per 1 Samuel 8:7-8

Yet, the fact remains that the Jews tried to crown him as King. And acknowledged him as the son of David during his triumphal entry to Jerusalem.

ewq1938 · Mar 30, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
The Jews did not reject Jesus

The bible says otherwise:

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Maria Billingsley · Mar 31, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Here a ten horned beast arises and after it rises the little horn who takes control of this ten horned kingdom.

Who do you think the little horn is in Revelation? The same guy that arises AFTER the ten horned beast rises up.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Same beast Daniel described but with the added 7 heads.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

And here comes the little horn just like it is in Daniel.

Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

Neither book uses the term "Antichrist" but we know that same person is found in both books under a different name. Isn't it clear that the little horn and FP are the AC?

Same "players" and same order of appearance.

little horn = false prophet = antichrist.

Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ of Nazareth is considered an anti-Christ. That is clear in
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

It also appears the "one" John was referring to was coming in their day. As far as a future "one" I see no scriptural reference. Many have been attributed the "one" as someone in their day. They were proven incorrect over and over. Even in our age we have a linage of AC's. So if you want to point to the AC you will find it a moving target as many after you will try to identify the one as well.
Blessings

Douggg · Mar 31, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Well, for starters, first of all. Simon Bar Kochba. Really WAS anointed Messiah by Rabbi Akiva.

also, as observed by Don K Preston in his book LAST DAYS IDENTIFIED. Please read John 6:15.

The Jews did not reject Jesus, he rejected their offer of kingship. Just as he rejected the same offer from the adversary in the desert. Matthew 4. And even from Saint Peter. Matthew 16.

The kingship offered to him was a rejection of God, the father. Per 1 Samuel 8:7-8

Yet, the fact remains that the Jews tried to crown him as King. And acknowledged him as the son of David during his triumphal entry to Jerusalem.

Hi Erik, in John 6:15, Jesus avoided them at that time who were gong to make him "a" king. A king of that region in Israel, up around the sea of Galilee.

It was not as the King of Israel, and Jesus went the other way because it did nor fit the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9, which he had come to fulfill. Which had to be when he rides into Jerusalem on the donkey - to be rejected as King of Israel.

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Did the Jews reject Jesus as King? I think I would look at John 19:14-15.

14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

__________________________________________________________________

Regarding Simon Bar Kochba, Rabbi Akira's declaration of him being the messiah didn't count as him been king of "united" Israel.

He was a leader over a independent Jewish state for three years, though, supported by the rabbi's. As the Romans began to close in, Bar Kochba (a name the R. Akiva gave him, but was later known as "bar Kozba" meaning son of a lie) became paranoid about insider spies and had R. Elazar executed. That action caused the rabbi's to no longer support him.

Bar Kochba « Jewish History

"Yet, in a fit of almost insane paranoia Bar Kochba accused the great sage, Rabbi Elazar, of being the spy and executed him. He then lost the support of the rabbis completely. It eroded all chance of reconciliation. Then they began calling him, “Bar Koziba,” meaning the son of a lie; a false messiah. Their hopes were dashed."

The Jews (Judaism) at MessiahTruth, Yuku site, don't consider Simon Bar Kochba as a king of Israel (the united country) like Saul, David, Solomon. In Ezekiel 37, it is not until the two sticks of Ephraim and Judah are joined that the messiah, code named David My servant, will be their king forever.

Which the two sticks were joined back together as a united Israel in 1948. The Antichrist, the King of Israel (united Israel) could not come to power until then.

One of the reasons bar Kochba was not considered the messiah (or shall we say failed messiah) is because he did not take part in rebuilding the temple.

Because the animal sacrifices will start up again in the end times prophecies, the Antichrist person will take part in some way of the rebuilding of the temple. The Jews are tying their expectation of the messiah with the rebuilding of the temple.

Douggg · Mar 31, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
It also appears the "one" John was referring to was coming in their day. As far as a future "one" I see no scriptural reference. Many have been attributed the "one" as someone in their day. They were proven incorrect over and over. Even in our age we have a linage of AC's. So if you want to point to the AC you will find it a moving target as many after you will try to identify the one as well.

Maria, it is going to be easy to identify the person, before he becomes the Antichrist. He will be a Jew. He will be the leader of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 in the end times - which appears to be the EU. And ten leaders of that kingdom will come before him.

Which it appears that it will be ten leaders of the EU who elect the person as the leader of the EU. And after being elected by a margin to 7 to 3. The person removes the 3 that don't support him from office. That's my take on it.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Maria Billingsley · Mar 31, 2019

Douggg said:
Maria, it is going to be easy to identify the person, before he becomes the Antichrist. He will be a Jew. He will be the leader of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 in the end times - which appears to be the EU. And ten leaders of that kingdom will come before him.

Which it appears that it will be ten leaders of the EU who elect the person as the leader of the EU. And after being elected by a margin to 7 to 3. The person removes the 3 that don't support him from office. That's my take on it.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

My eschatology is not the same as yours.
Blessings

How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

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