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How to get to heaven when you die

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StarSapphire

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XFRODOBAGGINSX said:
I posted this post so that anyone who may not know how to get saved would understand how. Sometimes people go to church for years and never get saved. I hope that does not happen to anyone here.

It won't happen. God is great and wonderful, and will not let any of those who are his slip away. He promised this in the Bible, if you will just read it and understand. Just don't clobber people with "you're full of sin, and need saving" but show them God's love for all of us, and that for the asking he will put his Spirit into them. The Bible never says we can save ourselves. We cannot do this with just ourselves. God will even give us the faith to be pleasing to him. Our salvation is entirely with God.
 
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XFRODOBAGGINSX

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Sapphyre said:
It won't happen. God is great and wonderful, and will not let any of those who are his slip away. He promised this in the Bible, if you will just read it and understand. Just don't clobber people with "you're full of sin, and need saving" but show them God's love for all of us, and that for the asking he will put his Spirit into them. The Bible never says we can save ourselves. We cannot do this with just ourselves. God will even give us the faith to be pleasing to him. Our salvation is entirely with God.


Here is what God has to say about that:

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It is God's will that we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. Going to church does NOT make you a child of God. We are only His children if we have a relationship with Him. The only way to have a relationship with Him is to receive Jesus Christ as Savior. Don't believe me, believe the bible.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(KJV)

Joh 10:1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

There is no other way to heaven other than Jesus Christ.
 
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revelations12_12

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I_are_sceptical said:
Christians are constantly walking up to me on the street or knocking on my door, telling me that my religion is false. But when I ask them to prove it, they immediately walk away. I was hoping I could get some answers here at CF.

I proved it was false, you just ignored the post and went of contradicting yourself... No thank yous or anything, you would think if you have been looking for so many years to get this proved false when I actually did it would have been good news to you.
 
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revelations12_12

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BAHA'IS AND THE NATURE OF GOD
Although Baha'is teach that God is unknowable in his essence, they believe that God does reveal something of himself to man, especially through his "manifestations" (i.e., Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, et. al.).4 For those familiar with the conflicting doctrines of the major world religions associated with these "manifestations," however, it is rather apparent that they cannot all be true (see Table). Yet this is exactly what the Baha'is maintain, namely, that each of these religious leaders was a manifestation of God for his own era and therefore spoke some truth about God's nature.




The Doctrine of God Taught by the Alleged Manifestations5

MANIFESTATION

IMPORTANT ELEMENTS IN HIS DOCTRINE OF GOD
Moses

One personal God. The universe is not eternal, but was created by God (Gen. 1-3; Deut. 6:4; etc.).

Krishna

Mix of polytheism and impersonal pantheism. The universe is eternal.

Zoroaster

One good god and one evil god (religious dualism).

Buddha

God not relevant; essentially agnostic.

Confucius

Polytheistic.

Muhammad

One personal God who cannot have a Son.

Jesus Christ

One personal God who does have a Son (Mark 12:29; John 4:24; 5:18-19;etc.)

Baha'u'llah

God and the universe, which is an emanation of God, are co-eternal.6



The fact that the various alleged manifestations of God represented God in contradictory ways implies either that manifestations of God can contradict one another or that God's own nature is contradictory. If the manifestations are allowed to contradict one another, then there is no way to separate false manifestations from true ones or to discover if any of them really speaks for the true and living God. Yet the Baha'is obviously do not accept every person who claims to be a manifestation of God (e.g., Jim Jones, founder of Jonestown). If, on the other hand, God's own nature is said to be contradictory, that is, that God is both one God and many gods, that God is both able and not able to have a Son, both personal and impersonal, etc., then the Baha'i concept of God is reduced to meaninglessness.



Can Christian Doctrines Withstand Scrutiny?
As I noted earlier, Steven McConnell has asked whether the Christian concept of God could measure up to this sort of scrutiny. He asserts, "Subjected to the glossy examination you give the Baha'i God, the paradox of Jesus being fully human and fully divine as well as the paradox of the unity and individuality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would be mere contradictions!" He then asks, "So why are Christianity's paradoxes (contradictions) more virtuous than Baha'i's?"7

Several comments are in order. First, Christian thinkers take an entirely different attitude toward their problematic doctrines than the Baha'is. For example, many Christian philosophers and theologians have spent much time trying to explain these doctrines in a way that is coherent and philosophically sound.8 Christians believe that these problematic doctrines are logically reconcilable because they are in fact ultimately noncontradictory. On the other hand, the Baha'is do not seem particularly concerned about whether their doctrine of God is internally consistent.

Second, the paradoxes inherent in the Christian doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity are not comparable to the contradictions inherent in the Baha'i concept of God. When the Bible asserts both the humanity and the deity of Jesus it is not asserting something that is self-contradictory by definition. Christians do not believe that Jesus was both God and not-God, but rather that Jesus was both God and man. In other words, when Christians assert that God became man they are not asserting that God became merely man (although He was fully man), but rather that the Son of God took on a human nature in addition to His divine nature. Although we may not fully comprehend how the divine and human natures interacted in the person of Jesus, this is not the same thing as saying that the concept of a God-man is self-contradictory.

Likewise, the doctrine of the Trinity, although paradoxical, is not self-contradictory. The doctrine of the Trinity asserts that three divine persons share the same substance or essence (i.e., the three persons are one and the same God). It does not assert that there are three individual substances which are one substance or that there are three gods which are also one god, either of which would be contradictory. That is, Christians are not saying that God is both one substance and not-one-substance, but rather that God is both one substance and three persons. Even if God's triunity cannot be fully comprehended by man, at least the Christian is not involved in a contradiction when he asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God.

On the other hand, the Baha'i is required to accept that blatantly contradictory concepts of God were all infallibly revealed by God through his "manifestations." For instance, monotheism (what Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad taught) and polytheism (what Confucius and Zoroaster taught) cannot both be true, since it is contradictory to say both that there is only one god and that there is more than one god. Therefore, unlike the Christian doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity, the Baha'i view of God implies mutually exclusive concepts of God.



BAHA'IS AND BIBLICAL PROPHECY
The Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the biblical prophecies of the return of Christ.9 Taken literally, of course, the biblical prophecies of Christ's return do not fit Baha'u'llah. The Bible speaks of Jesus Himself returning in the skies before the entire world in a cataclysmic fashion to judge the living and the dead (e.g., Matt. 24). By contrast, Baha'is recognized as the "Christ" another person (Baha'u'llah) who came into the world in relative obscurity through natural means (i.e., conception and birth).10

How, then, can the Baha'is claim that Bah'u'llah fulfills the biblical prophecies of Christ's return? They can do this only by insisting that the literal meaning is to be ignored. According to Baha'i doctrine, Jesus' description of His second coming in the Bible should be understood spiritually rather than literally. That is, the text of the Bible is said to have some symbolic meaning which is contrary to the ordinary meaning of the words used.



Literal and Symbolic
The Baha'is do not, however, follow this line of interpretation consistently in their reading of the Bible. Whenever they find a biblical passage that clearly states that Jesus will return at the end of the world in a way contrary to Baha'u'llah's arrival, the Baha'is simply assert that we should not take that passage literally. No reason for this assertion is ever produced from the text of the Bible itself. However, on other occasions where a literal interpretation might seem to the Baha'is to support their views (e.g., Dan. 8:13-17),11 they do not consider interpreting the passage nonliterally.

This sort of clip-and-paste view of biblical interpretation proves very little. After all, by the same rationale one could "prove" that any number of different individuals was Christ returned. Accepting as literal only those texts which seem to fit one's doctrinal views while pleading for a nonliteral interpretation for passages which contradict one's position is a favorite tactic of pseudo-Christian groups. For example, this interpretive technique is employed by the Unification Church to show that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah.12

With this method of interpreting biblical prophecy Baha'is employ circular reasoning (in which the arguer assumes what he or she is trying to prove). Because the Baha'i accepts Baha'u'llah's claim to fulfill Christ's second coming, he (or she) thinks he is justified in interpreting biblical prophecies symbolically which, if taken literally, would disprove Baha'u'llah's claim, but if taken nonliterally can be used to prove it.13 Thus, probably without even realizing it, the Baha'i is assuming the very point that he is trying to prove in his citing of biblical prophecy.



Jews, Christians, and Baha'is
In this article's introductory comments I mentioned Robert Stockman's assertion that just as the Jews were mistaken about Jesus' fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (that is, the Jews as a nation; many individual Jews accepted Jesus), the Christians of today are mistaken about Baha'u'llah's fulfillment of New Testament prophecy. There are two ways of understanding this argument. Perhaps it is meant to be a proof that Baha'u'llah fulfills biblical prophecy, in which case the argument might be stated more formally in the following manner:

1. The Jews thought that Jesus was not the Messiah, and they were wrong.

2. Christians today think that Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah (or Christ returned).

3. Therefore, Christians are wrong to reject Baha'u'llah.

Such an argument, if that is what Robert Stockman intended, would certainly be another case of faulty reasoning. By this reasoning Christians and Baha'is alike would be wrong to reject Jim Jones as a manifestation of God, or Sun Myung Moon as the second coming of Christ. Clearly, the mere fact that the Jewish rejection of Jesus was unjustified does not prove that the Christian rejection of Baha'u'llah is also unjustified.

There is another way of interpreting Robert Stockman's argument, however, that is not so obviously fallacious. Perhaps he is intending to argue only that the Christian rejection of Baha'u'llah is based on the same sort of error that led the Jews to reject Jesus. Baha'is generally argue that in both cases the error that led to the rejection of the "manifestation" was an overly literal interpretation of biblical prophecies. Such an argument would take the following form:

1. The Jews rejected Jesus because they interpreted the Bible too literally.

2. Christians today reject Baha'u'llah because they interpret the Bible too literally.

3. Therefore, Christians are wrong to reject Baha'u'llah on the basis of their literal interpretation of the Bible.

This argument, unlike the one discussed previously, has some logical value. If its premises go unchallenged, they lend strong support to its conclusion. However, both of the premises of this argument do invite challenge.

In the case of the second premise, for Baha'u'llah one could substitute any of the other modern religious leaders claiming to be a manifestation of God or a fulfillment of the Second Coming of Christ. A follower of Sun Myung Moon could argue with equal validity as follows:

1. The Jews rejected Jesus because they interpreted the Bible too literally.

2. Christians today reject Rev. Moon because they interpret the Bible too literally.

3. Therefore, Christians are wrong to reject Rev. Moon on the basis of their literal interpretation of the Bible.

In other words, the second premise is really immaterial. It amounts to saying that if the actual words of the Bible are ignored, anyone at all can be claimed to be a fulfillment of the Bible's "spiritual" or symbolic meaning.

As for the first premise, as a matter of historical fact it is simply false. The fact of the matter is that the Jews rejected Jesus as the fulfillment of biblical prophecy not because they interpreted it too literally, but because they did not interpret it literally enough. The Bible clearly predicted that the Messiah would be God (Ps. 45:6; Isa. 7:14; 9:6), but the Jews found Jesus' claim to be God scandalous and blasphemous in the extreme. The Bible also clearly announced that the Messiah would suffer and be killed as an atonement for Israel's sins (Isa. 53; Dan. 9:26), but the Jews regarded Jesus' crucifixion as proof that He was not the Messiah.

Not every Old Testament passage applied to Jesus in the New Testament was understood by first-century Jews as referring to the Messiah. However, there were a fair number of Old Testament prophecies which Jewish leaders and scholars in the first century did regard as literal predictions concerning the Messiah and which were fulfilled literally by Jesus.14 Since Jesus fulfilled these prophecies, what caused most of His contemporaries not to recognize this?

The answer is that the Jews allowed their assumptions about the Messiah to color and even distort their reading of the biblical text. Specifically, it was their expectation of a conquering political Messiah which led first-century Jews to reject the literal meaning of the text, which presents the Messiah as both suffering and conquering.15 Consequently, they had a concept of the Messiah which Jesus could not fit. Their desire for a political Messiah incited them to ignore or twist biblical passages predicting a suffering Messiah that were literally fulfilled in Jesus.

Similarly, the assumption made by the Baha'is that Baha'u'llah is God's manifestation for this age leads to distortions in their reading of the New Testament. (At least the Jews had some warrant in the biblical text for their view of the Messiah; the Baha'is have none.) They too are forced to ignore or twist biblical passages concerning Christ (in this case those concerning His return), which they do in order to apply them to Baha'u'llah. Ironically, then, it turns out that Robert Stockman's argument actually has things turned around. The truth is that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah for much the same sort of reason that Baha'is accept Baha'u'llah (which, in effect, is also rejecting Jesus): in both cases, religious assumptions about the Messiah interfered with a plain reading of the text. Like the Jews in Jesus' day, the Baha'is fail to interpret the Bible literally enough.

Also like the Jews, Baha'is are forced to explain why the Old Testament presents both a suffering and a conquering Messiah. The Baha'i answer is that the Old Testament really predicts two "Messiahs": Jesus was the suffering Messiah and Baha'u'llah the conquering one.16

This interpretation ignores the critical fact that both descriptions of the Messiah can be found within the same passages and are obviously referring to one person. For example, Daniel 9:25 calls the Messiah a "Prince" and 9:26 states that he will be "cut off," that is, killed.17 Jesus fulfilled in detail those prophecies referring to the Messiah's place of birth (Mic. 5:2), time of ministry (Dan. 9:24-27), death (Dan. 9:26; Isa. 53; Ps. 22), and resurrection (Ps. 16:10), as well as a number of others.18 Therefore, we should accept Jesus' claim (e.g., Matt. 24-25) and the teaching of the rest of the New Testament (e.g., Luke 1:33; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thess. 4:14-17; Rev. 1:7; 22:16-21) that He will personally return to fulfill the remaining prophecies which describe a conquering Messiah.

Certainly there is no reason to accept Baha'u'llah's claim to be that Messiah. He failed to fulfill any of the biblical prophecies concerning Christ's second coming,19 and Baha'i's cannot produce a single text from the Bible that suggests that Jesus will not Himself fulfill those prophecies.

The preceding discussion of the interpretation of biblical prophecy should be understood in the light of a more general appreciation of proper biblical interpretation.20 In contrasting "literal" with "symbolic" interpretations, I am not suggesting that biblical symbolism should not be interpreted as such. Rather, I am simply saying that what is understood as symbolic and what is taken more literally should be based on the text itself (as when Daniel interprets his visions as symbols, or when Jesus interprets His parables as earthly illustrations of spiritual truths). Where the Baha'is go wrong is in reading into the Bible doctrines that are totally foreign to its text and can only be justified by assuming their truth.



BAHA'IS AND RELIGIOUS UNITY
The third Baha'i argument against Christianity that I wish to address is the claim that Baha'ism must be God's true religion for this age because, unlike Christianity, it has not suffered any schisms. One Baha'i writer takes this so far as to proclaim boldly that "there are not Baha'i sects. There never can be."21

There are two problems with this argument: (1) It rests on a false premise — Baha'ism has in fact suffered divisions. (2) The conclusion does not follow — an undivided religion is not necessarily the true religion.



Division in Baha'ism
First, the fact is that Baha'ism has suffered several divisions, from its early days to the present. One group, known as the Free Baha'is, has published a book denouncing Shoghi Effendi (who took over leadership of the Baha'i World Faith after Baha'u'llah's son 'Abdu'l-Baha died).22 Another group, the Orthodox Baha'i Faith, was formed after Shoghi Effendi died, and recognizes Jason Remey as Effendi's successor.23 Yet another group, Baha'is Under the Provision of the Covenant (BUPC), is led by Montana chiropractor Dr. Leland Jensen. Though it has "Baha'i" in its name, it is not endorsed or recognized by the main body "as a legitimate Baha'i organization."24 As Vernon Elvin Johnson concludes in his Baylor University dissertation on the history of Baha'ism, "obvious schism has occurred in the Baha'i religion, for various factions each claiming to belong to the Baha'i religion have existed in the course of the faith's history."25

Some Baha'is may be tempted to counter that anyone who breaks off from the Baha'i World Faith is automatically not a Baha'i and therefore no schism has really occurred. Such an argument is circular in nature and commits what Antony Flew calls the "no-true-Scotsman" fallacy ("No Scotsman would do such a thing....Well, no true Scotsman would").26 As Johnson points out, the Catholic and Mormon churches have used similar reasoning to defend their claim to be the one true church27 (although the Catholic church no longer tends to take such an exclusive stance).



Division and Truth
Second, it simply does not follow that a religion that is undivided must be the true religion, or that a religion that is divided cannot be the true religion. For the Baha'i argument to be persuasive it must be shown, and not simply assumed, that the true religion must be unified organizationally. This is not a biblical teaching: unity of the faith is presented in the Bible as a goal for the church to reach, not a prerequisite for the church to be God's people (Eph. 4:11-16).

Since on independent grounds we know that Christianity is true (for example, the evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus,28 which Baha'is deny29), we may justifiably conclude that organizational unity is not a requirement for a religion to be true. The argument can be stated more formally as follows:

1. Either the true religion is unified or it is not.

2. Christianity is the true religion and it is not unified.

3. Therefore, the true religion is not unified.

The truth of Christianity is independent of whether its adherents congregate under the same organizational banner. Its truth depends rather on the truth of the Bible's teachings concerning the person, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is not to deny that Christians have an obligation to exhibit unity and love as a testimony to the world of the truth of Jesus Christ (John 13:34-35; 17:21-23). To our shame we confess that although Christianity is true, Christians have not always been true to Christ. Nevertheless, this does not alter the fact that Jesus Christ is the only Savior from sin and God's last word to man prior to the consummation of history (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Heb. 1:1-3; 13:8). On this basis Christianity stands vindicated as true and Baha'ism stands condemned as a rejection of God's truth as revealed in Jesus Christ.



NOTES
1 The only book-length Christian critiques of Baha'ism in print are Francis J. Beckwith, Baha'i (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1985), which focuses on doctrine, and William McElwee Miller, The Baha'i Faith: Its History and Teachings (South Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library Publications, 1984), which focuses on history.
2 This is the current list of the manifestations. The Baha'is have altered the list over the years. See Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan: The Book of Certitude, 2d ed., trans. Shoghi Effendi (Wilmette, IL: Baha'i Publishing Trust [hereafter "BPT"], 1950), 7-65; `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, trans. Laura Clifford Barney (BPT. 1930), 189; and a current Baha'i tract, One Universal Faith (BPT, n.d.), 5.
3 Personal letter from Steven McConnell, 1 June 1987.
4 See Beckwith, 8, and works cited there.
5 This table is based on Beckwith, 17.
6 Concerning God's relation to the universe, Baha'i writer J. E. Esslemont writes, "Baha'u'llah teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause." J. E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, 3d ed. (BPT, 1970), 204. It should be noted that it is untenable both philosophically and scientifically to maintain that the universe is without a beginning. See J. P. Moreland, Scaling the Secular City: A Defense of Christianity (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1987), 18-42, and works cited there; and Francis J. Beckwith, David Hume's Argument Against Miracles: A Critical Analysis (Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1989), chapter 5.
7 McConnell, 2.
8 For example, Thomas V. Morris, The Logic of God Incarnate (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1986).
9 See `Abdu'l-Baha, 110-12.
10 Esslemont, 214.
11 On this and other so-called Baha'i biblical prophecies, see Beckwith, Baha'i, 28-39.
12 See James Bjornstad, Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church, rev. ed. (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1984), 19-52.
13 See, for example, Esslemont, 222-26; `Abdu'l-Baha, 110-12.
14 See Norman L. Geisler, Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1976), 340-41; Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, rev. ed. (San Bernardino, CA: Here's Life Publishers, 1979), 141-77.
15 See Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Jesus Was a Jew (San Antonio, TX: Ariel Ministries, 1981), 23-64.
16 For example, see Esslemont, 214-16; see also Beckwith, Baha'i, 35-37.
17 See for further reading, Fruchtenbaum, 23-24; Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1971), 160-80.
18 See n. 14.
19 See Beckwith, Baha'i, 23-25.
20 See especially James Sire, Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1980).
21 David Hofman, The Renewal of Civilization, Talisman Books (London: George Ronald, 1960), 110.
22 Hermann Zimmer, A Fraudulent Testament Devalues the Bahai Religion into Political Shoghism, trans. Jeannine Blackwell, rev. Karen Gasser and Gordon Campbell (Waiblingen/Stuttgart: World Union for Universal Religion and Universal Peace — Free Bahais, 1973).
23 Vernon Elvin Johnson, An Historical Analysis of Critical Transformations in the Evolution of the Baha'i World Faith (Ann Arbor, MI: University Microfilms, 1974), 362-80.
24 Joel Bjorling, "Leland Jensen: The Prophet Who Cried 'Wolf,'" Understanding Cults and Spiritual Movements 1, 3 (1985):6.
25 Johnson, 410.
26 Antony Flew, Thinking Straight (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books, 1975), 47.
27 Johnson, 412.
28 On the evidence for the resurrection, see especially William Lane Craig, Knowing the Truth about the Resurrection (Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Publications, 1988), and Gary Habermas, The Resurrection of Jesus: An Apologetic (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1980).
29 See Beckwith, Baha'i, 14, 25-26.
 
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deornie

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I belive that it does not matter HOW you come to God, the only thing that matters is if you live accoding to His love...

Who are we here on Earth to judge who is saved and who is not??? people have no right to proclaim themselves 'saved' and others 'lost', every single person has his or her own way... adn God loves everyone.
 
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revelations12_12

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deornie said:
I belive that it does not matter HOW you come to God, the only thing that matters is if you live accoding to His love...

Who are we here on Earth to judge who is saved and who is not??? people have no right to proclaim themselves 'saved' and others 'lost', every single person has his or her own way... adn God loves everyone.

Hey it is my favorite CF Girlie to flirt with!! Hi Deornie :wave:
 
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wykael

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deornie said:
I belive that it does not matter HOW you come to God, the only thing that matters is if you live accoding to His love...

Who are we here on Earth to judge who is saved and who is not??? people have no right to proclaim themselves 'saved' and others 'lost', every single person has his or her own way... adn God loves everyone.

You know, deornie, that's a way of teaching that is popular today. However, the Bible doesn't agree with that. The Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Through His salvation. Rejecting that truth minimizes the sacrifice given for us by the Son of God.

The Bible also warns about teaching "popular" truths in place of Biblical truths. It's very easy to preach popular ideas. They sound good, and people tend to not argue with them as much. But God didn't make this an easy road. He didn't give us a broad path of "whatever you want" to get to Heaven. He gave specific directions. Put it this way. If you want directions to your house, there is a specific road that will lead people directly to your driveway. Or you could simply say "Drive West" (or whatever direction - N,S,E or W - applies depending on the starting point) and hope the guest arrives. The Bible is a very specific road map to Heaven. It's our choice if we use it or not.

As for living according to God's love, He loves all of us. He wishes all of us would choose Him. But He still gave us free will. His love is not sufficient for our salvation. It's still our decision.
 
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deornie

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wykael said:
You know, deornie, that's a way of teaching that is popular today. However, the Bible doesn't agree with that. The Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Through His salvation. Rejecting that truth minimizes the sacrifice given for us by the Son of God.

The Bible also warns about teaching "popular" truths in place of Biblical truths. It's very easy to preach popular ideas. They sound good, and people tend to not argue with them as much. But God didn't make this an easy road. He didn't give us a broad path of "whatever you want" to get to Heaven. He gave specific directions. Put it this way. If you want directions to your house, there is a specific road that will lead people directly to your driveway. Or you could simply say "Drive West" (or whatever direction - N,S,E or W - applies depending on the starting point) and hope the guest arrives. The Bible is a very specific road map to Heaven. It's our choice if we use it or not.

As for living according to God's love, He loves all of us. He wishes all of us would choose Him. But He still gave us free will. His love is not sufficient for our salvation. It's still our decision.

So you would say that all the people that leaved before Jesus got to hell?;)
 
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wykael

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deornie said:
So you would say that all the people that leaved before Jesus got to hell?;)

Good question. The answer is no. Jesus established a new convenant with His resurrection. Those who came before that covenant can not have been bound by it. They would still have been under the old covenant.
 
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wykael

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deornie said:
ok so how about people that grew up is societies where they do not know about Jesus? Do they all automatically go to hell?

I suppose they would, yes. This all goes back to the original sin. Man had it made in the beginning. We screwed it up. This would be why missionaries go all over the world. The opportunity to know God is almost everywhere now. For each of the societies somewhere in their history, decisions were made moving away from God. Unfortunately, people today seem to have to pay for the decisions of those who came before. We find a similar, albiet happier form of this in the children of Abraham. God blessed his descendants.
 
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revelations12_12

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wykael said:
I suppose they would, yes. This all goes back to the original sin. Man had it made in the beginning. We screwed it up. This would be why missionaries go all over the world. The opportunity to know God is almost everywhere now. For each of the societies somewhere in their history, decisions were made moving away from God. Unfortunately, people today seem to have to pay for the decisions of those who came before. We find a similar, albiet happier form of this in the children of Abraham. God blessed his descendants.

actually this is not correct only those that know the law are judged by the law. I cannot remember where in the bible it talkes about this, does anyone else?
 
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I_are_sceptical

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revelations12_12 said:
I proved it was false, you just ignored the post and went of contradicting yourself... No thank yous or anything, you would think if you have been looking for so many years to get this proved false when I actually did it would have been good news to you.
I asked earlier if you wanted me to reply, and in post 168 you said "not really", so I kept quiet. Actually, I thought you had left the discussion, never to return.

Would you like me to reply to your post?
 
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I_are_sceptical

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Daughter of His said:
I think I am the only person arguing. :( so sorry.

If I have any thoughts on the subject I'd like to stay in, any more questions?
Don't worry about it. I've been called a belligerent jerk at Contender Ministries and mule headed at Theology Web.

Any "more" questions? Now how do I answer that one? Actually, I do not feel any of the questions I have already asked have been answered.
 
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revelations12_12

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I_are_sceptical said:
I asked earlier if you wanted me to reply, and in post 168 you said "not really", so I kept quiet. Actually, I thought you had left the discussion, never to return.

Would you like me to reply to your post?

I am here to try to convince you to make the right descision for your soul, I felt like you just disreguarded the truth, and continued to start new. I was going to let you start fresh with someone else as it seemed you were not interested in truth. If I have misjudged then I apologize, if you have a rebuttle to the posts I put up I would love to hear them Brooks:) I just left the conversation so we were not running in circles.
 
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I_are_sceptical

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revelations12_12 said:
if you have a rebuttle to the posts I put up I would love to hear them.
There are no quotes from Baha'i Scripture to prove the Baha'i Faith actually teaches any of the things the post claims it teaches. There are no quotes from our authorized interpretations of Scripture, or from Baha'i commentaries that are regarded by Baha'is as accurate.

If someone is going to post a criticism of the New Testament, shouldn't they actually quote it, and do so extensively, to prove what they are saying matches Jesus' teaching? Do you think that when Christians examine another religion they should show the same fair-mindedness they would want from non-Christians?

Why do you think your post disproves Baha'u'llah? Who are you trying to convince? If you are trying to convince me, you have failed, because my religious beliefs are not based on the personal opinions of non-Baha'is. And that is all that post is to me, an opinion, and a very inaccurate one, whereas Baha'u'llah's teachings are the Infallible and Inerrant Word of God.

If someone who is Jewish posted something similar to that, expressing a non-Christian viewpoint and totally ignoring everything Christians say about their own beliefs, would you give up Jesus?
 
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smooze

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2 Peter 2:1 said:
False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute
Matthew 7:15-20 said:
A Tree and Its Fruit

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
this is the message we must remember all in Jesus's holy name AMEN
 
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