How to get to heaven when you die

[Scottish Joy]

rolling on the floor, laughing

It is quite clear that you honestly believe that I am going to agree with these statements.

(ahem) Please permit me to remind you that I am not a Christian, I'm a follower of Baha'u'llah.

Hmm... No, actually, I'm not expecting you to agree with me here. I'm talking about the Bible, and please permit me to remind you that you're dealing with a follower of Jesus who takes the Word of God very seriously. What I was saying is true, I posted the scriptures that say it's true, and whether you agree with me or not isn't an issue for me.

Honestly, Brooks, how am I supposed to discuss these things with you if you don't at least try to take me seriously?? I don't care whether or not you agree!

I mistrust your motive. Christians in the past have taken quotes from Baha'i Scripture, compared them to quotes from the Bible, and said "That proves the Baha'i Faith is wrong". I'm tired of listening to that.

Such statements assume the Baha'i Faith is false, which is the very thing the argument is supposed to prove. It never occurs to Christians to approach Baha'u'llah's claims exactly the same way Jesus' claims should be approached. "With an open mind and a humble heart, considering the possibility that those claims just might be true." quoted, more or less accurately, from the book 'Basic Christianity' by John Stott.

I already addressed this. Why do you skip the verses? It never occurs to Christians to approach Baha'u'llah's claims the exact same way as Jesus'??? Jesus is the Son of God for crying out loud!

Let me ask you a question. What is your point of reference?? WHAT determines absolute truth? Please answer this one.

True, but your argument ignores the very existence of other religions. So, as a non-Christian, I am not yet convinced God agrees with you.

Actually, I did address the issue of other religions. I quoted directly from the Word of God the criteria that determines who is a true prophet & who is a false prophet.

Logical according to whom?

I'm still working on this. I could be wrong, but it seems to be based on assumptions for which you have not yet offered supporting evidence.

Did you read my last post?

If verses from the Bible just don't count as logical supporting evidence, then we don't have anything more to talk about. I already told you that I believe the Bible to be the inerrant, inspired, only Word of God. I'm not going to budge here.

Okay, He wasn't. But are you saying that if God sends someone who is "just a prophet" that we should reject that person? That person would still be chosen by God to deliver a message, right? Should we ignore God's Word because the person delivering it is not fully God in human flesh?

No! But we have to put them to the test. I mean, Satan is a deceiver & a liar. He can say he is Jesus one minute & Elvis the next. So you're telling me to just believe anything & everything anyone says? No way.

I mean, how do you determine who's true & who's false? Or do you just believe everything without question? Sheesh, obviously you don't do that! But what are the criteria, if the tests set down by God in the Bible don't apply?

What is your view of Judaism? Is it God's Word? But hasn't the Dispensation of the Law ended? If so, isn't it possible that God will speak again, ending the Christian Dispensation? (setting aside Christian views on prophecies about the Second Coming. After all, the Jews do not agree that Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy)

Actually, there are Jews who do accept Jesus as the Messiah. And I was unaware that the Jews were a "dispensation"... they're people just like the rest of us, who are sinners in need of salvation.

Brothers and sisters, the thing I want most is for all the Jews to be saved. That is my prayer to God. 2 I can say this about them: They really try to follow God, but they do not know the right way. 3 Because they did not know the way that God makes people right with him, they tried to make themselves right in their own way. So they did not accept God’s way of making people right. 4 Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him may be right with God

Romans 10(NCV)

If so, isn't it possible that God will speak again, ending the Christian Dispensation?

9 And God gave me the work of telling all people about the plan for his secret, which has been hidden in him since the beginning of time. He is the One who created everything. 10 His purpose was that through the church all the rulers and powers in the heavenly world will now know God’s wisdom, which has so many forms. 11 This agrees with the purpose God had since the beginning of time, and he carried out his plan through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 3(ncv)

Methinks not. God would have to change His purpose & plan, and that's never happened before.

Why are you refering to Jesus' teachings as "mere"? I don't call them that. I call them the Word of God.

Sorry. I know you didn't say that. That's just the impression I got from the idea that they're not the authority anymore.

But this line of reasoning assumes that the Baha'i Scriptures are not the Word of God. What if they are?

Your line of reasoning just assumes that Baha'i scriptures are the Word of God. But what if they're not?? I can't accept them if they don't square with what God has already said! If they are, show me! I want the truth, I honestly do. I'm not as pigheaded as I may seem... Show me that Baha'i prophets meet the requirements given in God's Word for true prophets. It's not that I'm so zealous for my own opinions here, it's God's Word I want to defend. And the only way I can see to do that is to compare scripture with scripture.

Also, there is one particular doctrine where it is clear that Baha'u'llah's teaching is not at all compatible with Christian teaching. I checked to see what Jesus Himself had to say on the subject. My opinion is that Jesus agrees completely with Baha'u'llah. Therefore Baha'u'llah got it right and 2000 years of Christian theologions and Bible scholars have consistently got it wrong, generation after generation. I was quite impressed by that, and it is a major reason why I am a Baha'i today.

Which doctrine is that? I won't jump on you, I promise. I just really want to know what it is that's got you so convinced. Christian theologians & scholars are not without error.

If Jesus came back today, walked right up to you, and told you that he was doing away with certain Bible teachings and had some new and different things He wanted you to believe, how would you respond? Would you accept what He tells you, or would you say to His face that He does not have any right to change the Bible?

I wouldn't believe it. Most especially because I have no idea what Jesus looked like, so his looks wouldn't establish his identity. And if whoever it was stood before me & blatantly contradicted what Jesus taught, I would be positive without a shadow of doubt that it wasn't him.
Satan appears as an angel of light, so looks have nothing to do with it. I refer you back to the verses I coined a couple of posts ago, that say that:

6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who in his love and mercy called you to share the eternal life he gives through Christ. You are already following a different way 7 that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who twist and change the truth concerning Christ.
​

8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other message than the one we told you about. Even if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. 9 I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God’s curse fall upon that person.

Galatians 1

There you go! Again.

Have a good day!
Joy

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Well, we don't have a Moses faith

Judaism?

Why do you wish to follow another than your creator?

Because God wants me to. The Baha'i Faith claims to be a message from God, equal in authority to the Bible. That claim is either true, or it is false.

 

[smooze]

Verses on Hell:

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)
Jesus went to heaven.
People who are martyred during the tribulation:

yes all good and true but revelations is the end time doomsday there will be a lake of fire but at the end time. Yes there will an end time but
when we die we are at rest The bible is so clear on the fact that dead people don't know anyting,that it takes more than 50 comparisons to death being like unconscious sleep. Jesus used this comparison in John 11:1-45

"our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but i'm going there to wake him up

"Lord if He sleeps he will get better

Lazarus is dead and for your sake i'm glad i was not there, so that you may believe, now lets go to him

The disciples thought Jesus meant natural sleep but Jesus meant Death. The body does not descend into the heavnely realms is all i was saying. I was not disputing The fact there is a heavenly realm just that we don't "go" there after we die is all
ALL for Jesus
God BLess you and yours

 

[Daughter of His]

Christianity.I worded it that way because your faith puts emphasis on an prophet, calling the book after his name.

Because God wants me to. The Baha'i Faith claims to be a message from God, equal in authority to the Bible. That claim is either true, or it is false.[/QUOTE]

Do you KNOW it is God????? The devil is a liar. Your soul is important to him for some reason. I know you have researched extentisively. My thought is why do you reject God's word as the only truth?? Please do not think I am trying to attack you in any way, I'm concerned and want to know if you really are seeking the truth in Christ Jesus?? My words are to the point but my thoughts are not so harsh, I care.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Your line of reasoning just assumes that Baha'i scriptures are the Word of God. But what if they're not?? I can't accept them if they don't square with what God has already said!

So you're telling me to just believe anything & everything anyone says?

You still are getting it wrong. We are not discussing you changing your beliefs.

Hmm... No, actually, I'm not expecting you to agree with me here. I'm talking about the Bible, and please permit me to remind you that you're dealing with a follower of Jesus who takes the Word of God very seriously. What I was saying is true, I posted the scriptures that say it's true, and whether you agree with me or not isn't an issue for me.

Honestly, Brooks, how am I supposed to discuss these things with you if you don't at least try to take me seriously?? I don't care whether or not you agree!

Christians have a habit of saying things without providing the slightest evidence that God agrees with them, such as "You cannot gain salvation through faith in Baha'u'llah" and "Baha'u'llah can be clearly believed to be a false prophet".

Why do you skip the verses?

My religious beliefs are not based on the Bible. I turn to the Baha'i Scriptures for spiritual guidance. Please show me evidence that if there is a difference between Biblical teaching and Baha'i teaching, God wants me to choose the Bible.

It never occurs to Christians to approach Baha'u'llah's claims the exact same way as Jesus'??? Jesus is the Son of God for crying out loud!

And who, according to Baha'i Scripture, is Baha'u'llah?

Let me ask you a question. What is your point of reference?? WHAT determines absolute truth? Please answer this one.

The Infallible and Inerrant Word of God. And before you jump to the wrong conclusion, I'm talking about Baha'u'llah's teachings.

Actually, I did address the issue of other religions. I quoted directly from the Word of God the criteria that determines who is a true prophet & who is a false prophet.

Then you have not addressed the issue of other religions. They have their own Scriptures and their own claims, which are just as true as the Bible and everything in the Bible. Do you honestly expect me, since I happen to profess a non-Christian faith, to take your word for it that all religions other than Christianity are false?

If verses from the Bible just don't count as logical supporting evidence

Not until after you show me evidence that the Baha'i Scriptures are not God's Word.

I already told you that I believe the Bible to be the inerrant, inspired, only Word of God. I'm not going to budge here.

What's your point? So you believe the Bible to be the only Word of God. That's nice. Should I just take your word for it that God wants me to agree with you about it, or can you present evidence acceptable to a sceptic and non-believer?

No! But we have to put them to the test. I mean, Satan is a deceiver & a liar. He can say he is Jesus one minute & Elvis the next. So you're telling me to just believe anything & everything anyone says? No way.

I mean, how do you determine who's true & who's false? Or do you just believe everything without question? Sheesh, obviously you don't do that! But what are the criteria, if the tests set down by God in the Bible don't apply?

If you were Jewish, 1900 years ago, and someone told you that the Messiah had come, Jesus of Nazareth, how would you put that to the test? Would you place your reliance on Caiaphas the renowned Bible scholar, who called Jesus a blasphemer to His face, or would you be willing to listen to what Jesus said about Himself and His disciples said about Him, and give some thought to the idea that they might be right?

Do you think I should give Baha'u'llah a fair and equal hearing, or ignore the Baha'i Scriptures entirely and listen only to Christians who reject Him even though they admit they know nothing about the Baha'i Faith and what it teaches?

God would have to change His purpose & plan, and that's never happened before.

Really? Do the Jews (the non-Messianic Jews) agree that God's plan would not have to change for Jesus to be the Messiah?

Ever checked that out? I have. I found a book that details, from a Jewish viewpoint, why the Jews reject Jesus. I find it fascinating that the Jewish arguments against Jesus and the Christian arguments against Baha'u'llah are so similar.

Your line of reasoning just assumes that Baha'i scriptures are the Word of God. But what if they're not??

Then a discussion with a Christian should be able to convince me.

My belief that the Baha'i Scriptures are God's Word is based on years of research. I tell Christians if they want to win me to Christ it will be a long, hard battle. A while ago I kept running into members of the Campus Crusade for Christ. They only gave me two to five minutes before they gave up and walked away.

Which doctrine is that? I won't jump on you, I promise. I just really want to know what it is that's got you so convinced.

The doctrine that Jesus is fully God in human flesh.

I wouldn't believe it. Most especially because I have no idea what Jesus looked like, so his looks wouldn't establish his identity. And if whoever it was stood before me & blatantly contradicted what Jesus taught, I would be positive without a shadow of doubt that it wasn't him.

Let me try the question again. I was not saying "someone who MIGHT be Jesus" I said "Jesus". If Jesus told you He wanted you to believe something different from what the Bible teaches, would you accept new teachings from Him?

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Do you KNOW it is God?

I don't claim to be infallible. I could be making a mistake. But as near as I can tell, yes God speaks through Baha'u'llah.

My thought is why do you reject God's word as the only truth?

This statement assumes the Baha'i Scriptures are not God's Word. I refuse to base my eternal relationship with God on assumptions. I want evidence.

I'm concerned and want to know if you really are seeking the truth in Christ Jesus?

Yes, but don't think for a moment I will be an easy victory. You want to convert me, you are in for a long, long discussion.

 

[Daughter of His]

It is difficult if bibical scripture does not hold referance with you. What I say, even if in my words is as close to scriptural as possible. Would that bother you? Do you want to be converted???

 

[I_are_sceptical]

It is difficult if bibical scripture does not hold referance with you.

It is only difficult if you are asking me to make a decision that will affect my relationship with God for the rest of eternity based on your personal opinion, instead of objective evidence, that the Baha'i Faith is not what it claims to be.

If you, or any other Christian, has evidence that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet, I will examine it. But I'm not going to ignore what Baha'u'llah says before I take a look at that evidence.

Do you want to be converted?

If God does not want me to be a member of the Baha'i religion, yes of course.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Joy Baha'i Scripture does not come in verses like the Bible, but in much longer statements. Here is a link to brief excerpts from some letters Baha'u'llah wrote, specifically setting forth His claim about who He is. This is part of the basis of what I believe.


http://bahai-library.com/?file=bahaullah_proclamation_bahaullah.html

 

[Daughter of His]

Well, I took a quick read of some of it.

" Our mission is to seize and posses the hearts of men."

Do you think this is ok????

"cleave ye to that which your imagination have devised, and cast behind your backs the commandments of God"

Frankly, that is all the evidence I need to convince me this is NOT of God. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. This is NOT in line with the word of God nor anykind of supplement to the word of God.

Please do not be deceived, this is not God's way.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

" Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men."

Do you think this is ok????

Yes I think it's ok. Of course I think it's ok.
1. If it's the Word of God, why wouldn't it be ok? Acceptance or rejection of the wisdom of this statement depends on whether the reader is or is not willing to accept at least the possibility that the statement is God's Word, right?

Read John 6:60-66. Some of Jesus' disciples objected to something He said, and decided to go follow someone else. Do you think they made a mistake? Do you think Jesus is always right even when He says something that is a bit hard to understand?

2. Don't you think God wants to possess your heart? If not, could you post some Bible verses that show God is not interested in your heart?

"cleave ye to that which your imagination have devised, and cast behind your backs the commandments of God?"

Frankly, that is all the evidence I need to convince me this is NOT of God. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. This is NOT in line with the word of God nor anykind of supplement to the word of God.

Please do not be deceived, this is not God's way.

Do you think it is enough evidence to convince me the Baha'i Faith is not of God? After all, this is really what we are discussing here, right? Me giving up the Baha'i Faith and becoming a Christian?

Can you show me evidence from Jewish publications that the New Testament is in line with the Word of God, the Hebrew Scriptures? If the Jews think it is not, are you going to give up Christianity and join the Jewish religion? Or do you think the claims Jesus made about Himself are true even if some people disagree?

Also, the commandments of God referred to is (Baha'is believe) Baha'u'llah's teachings. If I agree with your assessment I would, therefore, be cleaving to that which your imagination has devised and casting behind my back the commandments of God. If Jesus said we should follow Him instead of the theology of people who reject Him, would you agree with Jesus or with a bunch of learned Bible scholars and theologians? As a Baha'i, I am faced with exactly that choice here. Baha'u'llah's statement is either the Word of God or it is not. Personally, I don't think just because you disagree with Baha'u'llah is suffiicient evidence for me to give up my religion. I'll need more evidence.

 

[Daughter of His]

Seize and posses the hearts of men is still NOT ok with me. That does not sound like God to me. He has given us free will, and so if we come to him it has required a decision on our part. This is not to say He has not tugged on our heart strings, to draw us to Himself. And yes, I believe Jesus was and is ALWAYS right. He states that He had chosen the 12, my take is that if they didn't understand, they weren't to stay with him, the exact 12 stayed, it was no coicidence. Maybe these that left did not have enough faith.

..."Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be rightous." Romans 4:3

Faith is intangible, but God knows our heart and thankfully it is Him who will be our judge.

I read that second quote as do whatever your imagination tells you and ignore the commandments of God. It's your free will again working, your choice. Read revelation?

 

[wykael]

[/color]
Do you think it is enough evidence to convince me the Baha'i Faith is not of God? After all, this is really what we are discussing here, right? Me giving up the Baha'i Faith and becoming a Christian?

Actually, the way I understand God's will, I am not here to convince you of anything. I am here to discuss, and expose people to certain ideas, and to God himself. From there, it is really between you and God. He will show you in your heart who He is. It's up to you, if you are going to listen. God gave us free will to choose what we will follow, and how we will live. That's both Old and New testament. He wants us to follow him out of faith, not out of evidence, or out of being "convinced." We need to seek God, and pray for discernment continually. In the end, we will learn who was right and who was wrong. The Bible, and my heart, tells me that the one and only way to eternity with God is through Jesus Christ. The Bible closes by saying nobody is to add to or take away from the word of God. Works written and added to this book by later parties are doing just that. I don't intend to follow that. I will find myself happy before the pearly gates when my time comes.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Seize and posses the hearts of men is still NOT ok with me.

Very well. As you wish.

That does not sound like God to me. He has given us free will, and so if we come to him it has required a decision on our part.

It also involves a decision to join the Baha'i Faith, so I have never interpreted that quote to mean that God will force anyone to believe in Him against their will.

I believe Jesus was and is ALWAYS right.

Then would the idea occur to you that a Baha'i would believe Baha'u'llah is right even if all the Christians in the world disagree with Him? That is why I don't just take your word for it that His teachings are wrong.

I read that second quote as do whatever your imagination tells you and ignore the commandments of God.

That is because you misread it. There is a question mark at the end of the sentence.

It is not a statement about what Baha'u'llah wants humanity to do, it is an accusation that everyone is disobeying God. To rephrase it "Are you cleaving to what your imaginations have devised INSTEAD OF obeying the commandments of God?"

The Book of Revelation confuses me. I haven't got much out of it.

Actually, the way I understand God's will, I am not here to convince you of anything.

Okay. I've run into Christians who are trained for a high-pressure approach to witnessing. They want me to give up my religion on the spot.

We need to seek God, and pray for discernment continually.

He will show you in your heart who He is.

I've done that. As a result, I believe something different from what Christians tell me. Do you think that is the result of God showing me who He is?

He wants us to follow him out of faith, not out of evidence, or out of being "convinced."

God revealed His word to the Jewish people centuries before Jesus. If Jews remain in their religion out of faith, and ignore all the evidence Christians show them, does that mean the Jews are right about what God wants everyone to believe, and Christianity never was from God?

The Bible closes by saying nobody is to add to or take away from the word of God. Works written and added to this book by later parties are doing just that.

If the Baha'i Faith is from "later parties" I wouldn't follow it either. I believe it is a genuine Revelation from God, and therefore if I refuse to follow Baha'u'llah, I am disobeying God. I don't think Jesus would be too happy with me if I ignored Someone God has sent with new teachings.

I don't intend to follow that.

This discussion is not about you or any other Christian changing their religious beliefs, but me changing mine.

 

[Daughter of His]

My apologies, there is a question mark, but it is still strange to me.

Your question concerning the Jews is answered in Romans 11:8. God has caused the Jews to be this way to make way for the Gentiles.

Really the only way the the Father is through the Son.

 

[Daughter of His]

I do not wish to argue. I don't seem to be of any help to you, sorry. Please seek God.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

I do not wish to argue. I don't seem to be of any help to you, sorry. Please seek God.

Okay. Thank you for your time. Goodbye.

 

[wykael]

I guess it appears to me you are not comfortable with your "decision" to follow him. Otherwise, why would you be looking for one of us to convince you to change?

 

[XFRODOBAGGINSX]

...

 

[I_are_sceptical]

why would you be looking for one of us to convince you to change?

Christians are constantly walking up to me on the street or knocking on my door, telling me that my religion is false. But when I ask them to prove it, they immediately walk away. I was hoping I could get some answers here at CF.