How to get to heaven when you die

[I_are_sceptical]

Joy, once again you are misinterpreting what I am saying. This discussion is not about you joining the Baha'i religion, it is about why I should become a Christian.

Here's a question: Did we get God's Word from Moses, or did Moses just make up the things in the Old Testament in His own head?

revelations12_12 I looked through your posts. I'm not sure if you were talking to me, or if I'm supposed to reply.

 

[Daughter of His]

We did not get God's word through Moses. Moses recorded and brought the Ten Commandment to the people as God Himself had spoken to Moses. All scripture is God inspired through men. If you read the whole Bible you will see it to be interwoven Old and New Testament in a way such that I don't believe possible by different people. It is God's Word. If God wants to inspire someone for something it is no problem for Him.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

We did not get God's word through Moses.

All scripture is God inspired through men. It is God's Word.

I'm having trouble understanding this. These two statements appear to contradict each other.

Are the first five books of the Old Testament God's Word? If they are, then we DID get God's Word through Moses, right?

 

[Tari Nol]

I'm hope I'm worthy!

Very scary thought!

Is it wrong to not always agree with your church?

 

[Daughter of His]

I don't know why but I thought you meant the entire Bible through Moses and yes, he is credited with writing the first five books as well as recording the Ten Commandments. Does that answer your question?

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Does that answer your question?

Yes, thank you.

 

[Daughter of His]

You're most welcome and if you have any other questions maybe they can be answered. There are things of God I just wish I could help you understand because I believe the only way to living with God eternally is through accepting His Son Jesus and believing the work done for us. I pray God will touch your heart and I you will KNOW it is HIM. If there is anything else, please ask. You are not just a drop in the ocean--if God has a refrigerator your picture would be on it (not my words) but it makes the point. You count very much to Him, you are His personal creation and He loves you, with the kind of love we do not have the capacity to understand unless He gives it to us. Smiling at you!

 

[revelations12_12]

Joy, once again you are misinterpreting what I am saying. This discussion is not about you joining the Baha'i religion, it is about why I should become a Christian.

Here's a question: Did we get God's Word from Moses, or did Moses just make up the things in the Old Testament in His own head?

revelations12_12 I looked through your posts. I'm not sure if you were talking to me, or if I'm supposed to reply.

Not really you kept saying you would not be a Christain until someone could show you why Baha'i'allah was not in line with what God wanted you to believe. You mentioned you had asked Christains many times to show you why Baha'i'allah faith was wrong, I simply did my best to fulfill your request. If I made any small impact in your monumental descision with where to take your life from here I am very pleased. I am but a meanial pawn in the overall scheme of our lord.

Godspead Brooks

 

[I_are_sceptical]

if you have any other questions maybe they can be answered.

Lots of them, but usually I get the impression that Christians are not interested in my questions, so I'm not just blurting out everything that is on my mind.

There are things of God I just wish I could help you understand

Okay, go for it.

If there is anything else, please ask.

Next question: A few posts back it was stated that Moses did not die for my sins, and was not bodily raised from the dead. You would agree with that, right?

So if the Bible teaches that we can get God's Word from someone who did not do those things, why do Christians tell me that I should not be a Baha'i, a follower of Baha'u'llah, even though Baha'u'llah did not do those things? It seems to me that the Christian position on that particular point contradicts the Bible.

Smiling at you!

Thank you.

 

[Scottish Joy]

Hi Brooks!

Joy, once again you are misinterpreting what I am saying. This discussion is not about you joining the Baha'i religion, it is about why I should become a Christian.

I know. I didn't think you were trying to make a Baha'i out of me! I understand that it's about why you should become a Christian. But how am I to go about disproving the Baha'i religion, if you won't tell me why you believe what you believe?? It's a little frustrating for me too, because I want to do my best to answer your questions, but you're not giving me enough to go on. My comment about wanting to see some of your scriptures was for that purpose (hint hint ).

And I already told you why I think you should become a Christian... in a nutshell.

Here's a question: Did we get God's Word from Moses, or did Moses just make up the things in the Old Testament in His own head?

Yes. God chose to give His Word through Moses. He also gave it through Joshua, Samuel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel.... etc etc. All the prophets were ministers of God to proclaim His word.

So if the Bible teaches that we can get God's Word from someone who did not do those things (rise from the dead), why do Christians tell me that I should not be a Baha'i, a follower of Baha'u'llah, even though Baha'u'llah did not do those things? It seems to me that the Christian position on that particular point contradicts the Bible.

My point in bringing that up, is that you cannot gain salvation through faith in Baha'u'llah. Since the Baha'is believe that Jesus' teaching was just "for His dispensation" & therefore outdated, it seemed like the logical next place to go. Why have faith in Jesus if He was just a prophet? He wasn't. Does my reasoning make any sense now?

None of the aforementioned prophets rose from the dead, and we accept them as bona fide prophets- so why not accept Baha'u'llah? If I understand you correctly, this is the question, right??

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets many times and in many different ways. 2 But now in these last days God has spoken to us through his Son. God has chosen his Son to own all things, and through him he made the world. 3 The Son reflects the glory of God and shows exactly what God is like. He holds everything together with his powerful word. When the Son made people clean from their sins, he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven.


Hebrews 1(NCV)

It says "In the past". I know I'm getting into some controversial stuff here, but for the sake of answering your question in the manner most true to the Bible as I read it, I'll bring this up.


I believe the Bible is teaching that prophecy was a thing of the past. We don't need prophets anymore because the Son of God that they were prohesying about has come.


10 The prophets searched carefully and tried to learn about this salvation. They prophesied about the grace that was coming to you. 11 The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets, telling in advance about the sufferings of Christ and about the glory that would follow those sufferings. The prophets tried to learn about what the Spirit was showing them, when those things would happen, and what the world would be like at that time.

1 Peter 1(NCV)

They were prophesying about this same salvation that Jesus brought. Not a mere one-time message for a certain dispensation. If that is what Baha'u'llah preached, then he can be clearly believed to be a false prophet, as his message contradicts the message God has already given.


There used to be false prophets among God’s people, just as you will have some false teachers in your group. They will secretly teach things that are wrong—teachings that will cause people to be lost. They will even refuse to accept the Master, Jesus, who bought their freedom.

2 Peter 2(NCV)

As I said above, if anyone (including Baha'u'llah) teaches that Jesus' teachings are irrelevant, he clearly falls into this group.



My dear friends, many false prophets have gone out into the world. So do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.

1 John 4:1(NCV)

Have you held Baha'u'llah up to the Word of God & found the two to agree in every particular?



3 Dear friends, I wanted very much to write you about the salvation we all share. But I felt the need to write you about something else: I want to encourage you to fight hard for the faith that was given the holy people of God once and for all time. 4 Some people have secretly entered your group. Long ago the prophets wrote about these people who will be judged guilty. They are against God and have changed the grace of our God into a reason for sexual sin. They also refuse to accept Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord.



Jude 3(NCV)


Do Baha'is accept Jesus Christ as the only Master and Lord?

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw them, I bowed down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed these things to me. 9 But the angel said to me, "Do not worship me! I am a servant like you, your brothers the prophets, and all those who obey the words in this book. Worship God!"



Revelation 22(NCV)


18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to these words, God will add to that person the disasters written about in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away that one’s share of the tree of life and of the holy city, which are written about in this book.

20 Jesus, the One who says these things are true, says, "Yes, I am coming soon."

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22(NCV)

In the little bit of reading I have done about the Baha'i faith, it seemed very clear to me that they are adding to the Bible, and even saying that parts of it are no longer relevant. I think that is proof upon proof that Baha'u'llah, or any other Baha'i prophet cannot be sent from God.



Joy

 

[XFRODOBAGGINSX]

Thank you.

 

[JPPT1974]

Scottish Joy, thanks for all of that as that was beautiful indeed!!

 

[portia13]

GOD gave us free will.

 

[smooze]

where in the bible does it say anything about Heaven or Hell? I believe a new Jerusalem was promised the faithful and a ever-lasting body. If we really want to be more like Jesus we first have to clean our temples >>our Bodies and minds<< these are important to be recognized . I believe that when we die we are at rest until the resurrection. If someone has already said these things my apologies. If i need to quote scriptures then give me a few days or weeks

 

[JPPT1974]

God gave us free eternal salvation!

 

[I_are_sceptical]

(sigh) Half of my post is purple, I have no idea why the last part is in bold-face, but there is no time for editing. Gotta get ready to go to work.

you cannot gain salvation through faith in Baha'u'llah.

If that is what Baha'u'llah preached, then he can be clearly believed to be a false prophet, as his message contradicts the message God has already given.

rolling on the floor, laughing

It is quite clear that you honestly believe that I am going to agree with these statements.

(ahem) Please permit me to remind you that I am not a Christian, I'm a follower of Baha'u'llah.

But how am I to go about disproving the Baha'i religion, if you won't tell me why you believe what you believe?? It's a little frustrating for me too, because I want to do my best to answer your questions, but you're not giving me enough to go on. My comment about wanting to see some of your scriptures was for that purpose

I mistrust your motive. Christians in the past have taken quotes from Baha'i Scripture, compared them to quotes from the Bible, and said "That proves the Baha'i Faith is wrong". I'm tired of listening to that.

Such statements assume the Baha'i Faith is false, which is the very thing the argument is supposed to prove. It never occurs to Christians to approach Baha'u'llah's claims exactly the same way Jesus' claims should be approached. "With an open mind and a humble heart, considering the possibility that those claims just might be true." quoted, more or less accurately, from the book 'Basic Christianity' by John Stott.

And I already told you why I think you should become a Christian... in a nutshell.

True, but your argument ignores the very existence of other religions. So, as a non-Christian, I am not yet convinced God agrees with you.

Since the Baha'is believe that Jesus' teaching was just "for His dispensation" & therefore outdated, it seemed like the logical next place to go. Does my reasoning make any sense now?

Logical according to whom?

I'm still working on this. I could be wrong, but it seems to be based on assumptions for which you have not yet offered supporting evidence.

Why have faith in Jesus if He was just a prophet? He wasn't.

Okay, He wasn't. But are you saying that if God sends someone who is "just a prophet" that we should reject that person? That person would still be chosen by God to deliver a message, right? Should we ignore God's Word because the person delivering it is not fully God in human flesh?

None of the aforementioned prophets rose from the dead, and we accept them as bona fide prophets- so why not accept Baha'u'llah? If I understand you correctly, this is the question, right?

Yes, that's right.

Not a mere one-time message for a certain dispensation.

What is your view of Judaism? Is it God's Word? But hasn't the Dispensation of the Law ended? If so, isn't it possible that God will speak again, ending the Christian Dispensation? (setting aside Christian views on prophecies about the Second Coming. After all, the Jews do not agree that Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecy)

Why are you refering to Jesus' teachings as "mere"? I don't call them that. I call them the Word of God.

Have you held Baha'u'llah up to the Word of God & found the two to agree in every particular?

No.

But this line of reasoning assumes that the Baha'i Scriptures are not the Word of God. What if they are?

Also, there is one particular doctrine where it is clear that Baha'u'llah's teaching is not at all compatible with Christian teaching. I checked to see what Jesus Himself had to say on the subject. My opinion is that Jesus agrees completely with Baha'u'llah. Therefore Baha'u'llah got it right and 2000 years of Christian theologions and Bible scholars have consistently got it wrong, generation after generation. I was quite impressed by that, and it is a major reason why I am a Baha'i today.

Do Baha'is accept Jesus Christ as the only Master and Lord?

No.

In the little bit of reading I have done about the Baha'i faith, it seemed very clear to me that they are adding to the Bible, and even saying that parts of it are no longer relevant. I think that is proof upon proof that Baha'u'llah, or any other Baha'i prophet cannot be sent from God.

If Jesus came back today, walked right up to you, and told you that he was doing away with certain Bible teachings and had some new and different things He wanted you to believe, how would you respond? Would you accept what He tells you, or would you say to His face that He does not have any right to change the Bible?

 

[Daughter of His]

A few posts back it was stated that Moses did not die for my sins, and was not bodily raised from the dead. You would agree with that, right? Yes

So if the Bible teaches that we can get God's Word from someone who did not do those things, why do Christians tell me that I should not be a Baha'i, a follower of Baha'u'llah, even though Baha'u'llah did not do those things? It seems to me that the Christian position on that particular point contradicts the Bible.

Well, we don't have a Moses faith, or a John faith. We, as you already know, follow the Bible. Why do you wish to follow another than your creator? Do you think God would "hand over" His deity?

 

[psalms 91]

hello all, lively discussion. interesting

 

[XFRODOBAGGINSX]

where in the bible does it say anything about Heaven or Hell? I believe a new Jerusalem was promised the faithful and a ever-lasting body. If we really want to be more like Jesus we first have to clean our temples >>our Bodies and minds<< these are important to be recognized . I believe that when we die we are at rest until the resurrection. If someone has already said these things my apologies. If i need to quote scriptures then give me a few days or weeks

Verses on Hell:

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I think that it's safe to say that Hell is a real place of torment.

As far as heaven is concerned:

Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Jesus went to heaven.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)

Paul says to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Where is the Lord again? In heaven

Re 19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(KJV)

Re 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

People who are martyred during the tribulation:

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

[XFRODOBAGGINSX]

where in the bible does it say anything about Heaven or Hell? I believe a new Jerusalem was promised the faithful and a ever-lasting body. If we really want to be more like Jesus we first have to clean our temples >>our Bodies and minds<< these are important to be recognized . I believe that when we die we are at rest until the resurrection. If someone has already said these things my apologies. If i need to quote scriptures then give me a few days or weeks

Verses on Hell:

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I think that it's safe to say that Hell is a real place of torment.

As far as heaven is concerned:

Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Jesus went to heaven.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)

Paul says to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Where is the Lord again? In heaven

Re 19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(KJV)

Re 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

People who are martyred during the tribulation that are in heave:

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

I can give more verses if you need them but I think that this should suffice.