How to explain 13.8 billion years?

[BobRyan]

Are there not characteristics of the creation account that the 4th commandment picks up on? What are they? These are the values.

Exodus 20:11 points out "the very details" on the Genesis 1-2:3 historic account of creation - that evolutionists find most objectionable. These are "the very details" they wish to "refactor" to "revise and edit down to poem, myth, allegory, metaphor" -- yet they are in legal code stated by God in such a way that "No sir not 7 days but rather billions of years in some cases wherever we may wish to insert them" simple does not work as a response to God's explicit statement about the timeline for Genesis being the same as the timeline for the week at Sinai.

Instead of saying "don't worry about my 7 day creation week - because it was all loused up sometimes billions of years sometimes a day.. just pick 7 days for your week" ..

God said that the two are the same.
Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Appealing to the "very details" of Genesis 1-2 that blind faith evoutionists find most objectionable.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Exodus 31
17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.

 

[JackRT]

In Exodus 34, the original version of the ten commandments, the fourth commandment is:

19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck.

 

[BukiRob]

Dr Gerald Schroeder: PhD in nuclear physics and earth and planetary sciences in 1965, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He worked five years on the staff of the MIT physics department. He was a member of the United States Atomic Energy Commission.

He is Jewish and now teaches in Jerusalem Torah. This guy held some very esteemed positions does a beautiful presentation showing how the current scientific view and the Genesis account are actually in perfect harmony with each other.... AS IT IS WRITTEN

The reason Schroeder is soooo important is that he has a HIGHLY unique perspective. 1 that he is a scientist with the appropriate educational background to speak authoritatively about the science AND has a phenomenally deep understanding as an academia with regards to the TORAH. If you are merely relying on an English translation, as good as it may be, there is MUCH you will miss if you do not know what the original Hebrew.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Yes... The universe is about 15 billion years. However, the earth just did not appear at the big bang. It had to expand out from a point of origin. This is the timetable that I would put together...

I believe that the universe is about 15 billions years old and is the result and in response to Lucifer's rebellion.

If... E = mc2 ... Then m (matter) = E/c2 (energy)

Therefore, for the big boom to have occurred the matter had to have been there before the light and energy (E/c2), as the scripture says...

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. - Genesis 1:2

I would imagine, with these words... 'Let there be light (Genesis 1:3)', that the earth (the mass) turned into energy and light (E/c2) and expanded out from a point of origin, turning into what solar systems the Father willed it to. So the plasma (E/c2) is actually mass that has changed state.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:4,5

I believe that 15 billion years took place between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:4. God divided the light and the darkness by putting the earth in orbit around the sun thus creating the first day of the Earth's creation. But... The universe was created 15 billion years (give or take a few billion years) before that.

***So... The 7000 year theory, in my mind, begins after Genesis 1:3***

4300 - 2644 BC - Adam to the great flood: About 1,650 years
2644 - 1730 BC - The Patriarchs - From Noah to Joseph: About 1,000 years
1730 -1450 BC - From Joseph to Moses: So Joesphs bones were in Egypt about 300 years
1450 - 33 AD - The time of the Laws of Moses was about 1500 years.
33 - 66 AD Ephesus – Apostolic – 33 years, not long! “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me…” – II Timothy 1:15
66 - 312 AD - Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions. Ended with Constantine
312 - 800 AD - Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
800-1450 AD Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. Began with Charlemange
1450-1700 AD Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
1700-1940 AD Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love. Anabaptists -Weslayan -Moravian
1940 - 2060 AD Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?
2060 - 3060 AD - The Millennial reign

The time of the horseman runs with the last couple of church ages...

1. White - Democracy - Came about along with the Philadelphian church
2. Red - Communism - Note the red flag, hammer and sickle.
3. Black - Islam - Note the desire to disrupt the global economy.
4. Pale - Anti-Christ - A brief 3.5 year reign.

Isaac Newton picked the 2060 AD end date and I will go along with him with the following disclaimer...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.” – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

Our God is an eternal being. 15 billion years between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:5 is no big deal for him. I believe that God gave Lucifer free run of this known universe... But Lucifer's time is growing short. I think also, in 15 billion years, many of the fallen angels have lost track and forgotten their original state. The hearts are hopelessly hardened and quite evil!

"Lucifer" did no such rebellion. Lucifer was a name used for a Babylonian king, nothing more.

 

[JackRT]

"Lucifer" did no such rebellion. Lucifer was a name used for a Babylonian king, nothing more.

I agree. In addition "Lucifer" is the Latin term for "bright morning star" and was used as the ironic name for a prideful Babylonian king. The same word, Lucifer, is also used several times in the Book of Revelation in Jerome's Latin Vulgate as a reference to Jesus. The word there is used in the sense of bringing new light to the word.

 

[Meowzltov]

God our Father probably had Jesus in mind with his 4th commandment or else we would have worked him to death before he could have been crucified .. Not a joke ..

I have no idea what you are talking about. The fourth commandment has to do with the seventh day of a seven day week. I don't see what that has to do with Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[SkyWriting]

They believe the entire Bible is allegorical? Which denomination are you referring to?

He didn't say that.

 

[SkyWriting]

Just a theory I heard that would explain it.

Here is another one. "Time" is tied to mass. E=MC2
So IF mass was created.....then how would time be affected?
I'm not good with math, so my answer is "dramatically".

 

[BobRyan]

In Exodus 34, the original version of the ten commandments,

The idea that Exodus 34 comes before Exodus 20 ... is something you will have to ask libs about - because the Bible knows nothing about that.

===========================================
God said that the two are the same.
Exodus 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Appealing to the "very details" of Genesis 1-2 that blind faith evoutionists find most objectionable.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Exodus 31
17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.
====================================

Hint: Exodus 20 - God speaks the TEN Commandments - -then Moses goes up to the mountain.

Hint: Exodus 31
16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Hint: Ex 34:1
"The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones,"


Evolutionists pay almost no attention to what God says in Genesis 1-2. Is it any wonder they cannot follow the simple sequence of Exodus 20-34???

 

[BobRyan]

I agree. In addition "Lucifer" is the Latin term for "bright morning star" and was used as the ironic name for a prideful Babylonian king. The same word, Lucifer, is also used several times in the Book of Revelation in Jerome's Latin Vulgate as a reference to Jesus. The word there is used in the sense of bringing new light to the word.

Lucifer was Satan's name - given to him by God - before he became the devil.

 

[Radrook]

He didn't say that.

I guess I misunderstood him then.

 

[prodromos]

Because that would mean God left evidence that the universe existed much longer, evidence that would confuse and deceive us. IOW God would be a liar.

Which of course he is not.

So let me get this straight.
When God creates Adam with an apparent age, with all his biological and physiological processes in motion, oxygen already in his bloodstream, that's all peachy, but when God creates the universe with an apparent age, with all objects in motion, light filling the void, that is somehow God being deceptive?
ISTM that it could only be considered to be so if one did not accept the creation account and rejected the supernatural. If you accept that God created the universe then by default you accept something supernatural that is beyond the testing of natural science. There is nothing deceptive about it at all, unless you are viewing it from an atheist's perspective.

Adam could walk and understand language from his first breath, but these are things that we all know take years to learn. That is confusing and deceptive, is it not? Is God then a liar?

 

[BobRyan]

Why do we have to take the bible so literally. It was never intended as an astronomers manual

That is like saying "why believe in the virgin birth - the Bible was never intended as a book on genetics, on neonatology, on genes and homologous chromosomes".

One cannot take that sort of argument seriously because it essentially argues that nothing can be observed or claimed without first knowing the science - right down to the cellular level. It would negate every eye witness account, every detail ever revealed by God to man unless that man was a 20th century scientist and was specializing in the details of the event God was showing him.

Which would be "just fine" for some forms of atheism "to a point" but would not work for most cases including Christians who believe the Bible, the Gospel, the incarnation of the Son of God - the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection and ascension of Christ, miracles in the Bible etc.

 

[BobRyan]

So let me get this straight.
When God creates Adam with an apparent age, with all his biological and physiological processes in motion, oxygen already in his bloodstream, that's all peachy, but when God creates the universe with an apparent age, with all objects in motion, light filling the void, that is somehow God being deceptive?
ISTM that it could only be considered to be so if one did not accept the creation account and rejected the supernatural. If you accept that God created the universe then by default you accept something supernatural that is beyond the testing of natural science. There is nothing deceptive about it at all, unless you are viewing it from an atheist's perspective.

There you have it!

God makes man a free agent, an adult that can care for himself "day-1". Even though "observations in nature" tell us that a ONE DAY old human -- is a ZYGOTE and would take about 19 or 20 years to reach the point that Adam was at - on day ONE!

But that is 'accepted' in the tiny-mind-world-of-evolutionism because tiny "man" can easily grasp why it is that you cannot simply "create a zygote toss it on the ground and fly back up to heaven" as your "finished work" in creation of humanity. They can actually "grasp" that - so they expect a fully adult human "on day 1" - if man is to be autonomous in caring for himself on earth.

But when God points out that in His infinite wisdom the entire universe NEEDS to be created as it was for everything to work -- well then the non-universe-creating evolutionist argues that God is wrong. or deceptive...

how 'instructive' for the objective unbiased readers.

Bible-denying is not the great leap in intellect that blind-faith-evolutionist would have you believe.

 

[Zoii]

That is like saying "why believe in the virgin birth - the Bible was never intended as a book on genetics, on neonatology, on genes and homologous chromosomes".

One cannot take that sort of argument seriously because it essentially argues that nothing can be observed or claimed without first knowing the science - right down to the cellular level. It would negate every eye witness account, every detail ever revealed by God to man unless that man was a 20th century scientist and was specializing in the details of the event God was showing him.

Which would be "just fine" for some forms of atheism "to a point" but would not work for most cases including Christians who believe the Bible, the Gospel, the incarnation of the Son of God - the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection and ascension of Christ, miracles in the Bible etc.

No I totally disagree. The bible's paradigm IS about God, and in the NT the birth of Jesus. My point, is that we go well beyond the intended purpose of the teachings of god and Christ and attempt to input detail on matters for which the bible was never intended. This topic is about astrophysics essentially. The bible refers only very obliquely to the topic because.... its not an astrophysics text and shouldn't be used as one.

 

[4x4toy]

What chapter and verse does God mention a disclaimer to his Word ? Can't find one in my Bible .

Romans 1:25

 

[BobRyan]

Why do we have to take the bible so literally. It was never intended as an astronomers manual

That is like saying "why believe in the virgin birth - the Bible was never intended as a book on genetics, on neonatology, on genes and homologous chromosomes".

One cannot take that sort of argument seriously because it essentially argues that nothing can be observed or claimed without first knowing the science - right down to the cellular level. It would negate every eye witness account, every detail ever revealed by God to man unless that man was a 20th century scientist and was specializing in the details of the event God was showing him.

Which would be "just fine" for some forms of atheism "to a point" but would not work for most cases including Christians who believe the Bible, the Gospel, the incarnation of the Son of God - the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection and ascension of Christ, miracles in the Bible etc.

No I totally disagree. The bible's paradigm IS about God, and in the NT the birth of Jesus. My point, is that we go well beyond the intended purpose of the teachings of god and Christ and attempt to input detail on matters for which the bible was never intended. This topic is about astrophysics essentially. The bible refers only very obliquely to the topic because.... its not an astrophysics text and shouldn't be used as one.

The Bible does not say "the universe was created 13 billion years ago or 6000 years ago" ... But it does tell us when Jesus was incarnated - about 2000 years ago and it does tell us that the Earth, Sun and moon were all created in the real 7 day week about 6000 years ago.

We are not talking about things here that the Bible does not mention.

The problem with the defense for evolutionism is that it sees the Bible detail speaking to something it does not "prefer" and then claims the Bible never intended to give the detail that it gives on that subject.

 

[4x4toy]

That is like saying "why believe in the virgin birth - the Bible was never intended as a book on genetics, on neonatology, on genes and homologous chromosomes".

One cannot take that sort of argument seriously because it essentially argues that nothing can be observed or claimed without first knowing the science - right down to the cellular level. It would negate every eye witness account, every detail ever revealed by God to man unless that man was a 20th century scientist and was specializing in the details of the event God was showing him.

Which would be "just fine" for some forms of atheism "to a point" but would not work for most cases including Christians who believe the Bible, the Gospel, the incarnation of the Son of God - the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection and ascension of Christ, miracles in the Bible etc.



The Bible does not say "the universe was created 13 billion years ago or 6000 years ago" ... But it does tell us when Jesus was incarnated - about 2000 years ago and it does tell us that the Earth, Sun and moon were all created in the real 7 day week about 6000 years ago.

We are not talking about things here that the Bible does not mention.

The problem with the defense for evolutionism is that it sees the Bible detail speaking to something it does not "prefer" and then claims the Bible never intended to give the detail that it gives on that subject.

But the bible does give a pretty good time line with genealogies and such that could probably be narrowed down to a plus/minus of a generation or two to present day .. What's the plus/minus in years of time required for Godless evolution or big bang assumptions ? T-minus zero with no time to count ..

 

[BobRyan]

But the bible does give a pretty good time line with genealogies and such that could probably be narrowed down to a plus/minus of a generation or two to present day .. What's the plus/minus in years of time required for Godless evolution or big bang assumptions ? T-minus zero with no time to count ..

I said -

The Bible does not say "the universe was created 13 billion years ago or 6000 years ago" ... But it does tell us when Jesus was incarnated - about 2000 years ago and it does tell us that the Earth, Sun and moon were all created in the real 7 day week about 6000 years ago.

We are not talking about things here that the Bible does not mention.

The problem with the defense for evolutionism is that it sees the Bible detail speaking to something it does not "prefer" and then claims the Bible never intended to give the detail that it gives on that subject.

That includes this -
"But it does tell us when Jesus was incarnated - about 2000 years ago and it does tell us that the Earth, Sun and moon were all created in the real 7 day week about 6000 years ago."

That 6000 year number comes from the genealogies that you mentioned... so I do agree with that.

 

[4x4toy]

I said -



That includes this -
"But it does tell us when Jesus was incarnated - about 2000 years ago and it does tell us that the Earth, Sun and moon were all created in the real 7 day week about 6000 years ago."

That 6000 year number comes from the genealogies that you mentioned... so I do agree with that.

And it tells us the beginning , The first light, dark and day . The beginning of time for natural creation .. God the Spirit exists from everlasting to everlasting eternal .. There will be an end of time for natural creation and it won't take billions of years to close that out either .. Yet all created souls will exist eternal outside of time long gone .. There is an eternal place prepared for all to exist according to judgment day and it is up to each of us to choose where .... Right ?