How to explain 13.8 billion years?

[Queller]

Do you have a "down scale" version of how a world wide flood "works"? Shall we "yield to your expertise" in that area or just stick with the Bible.

There is an interesting choice indeed.

I have no idea what ""down-scale" model of a flood" means. I do know that no model for a worldwide Flood 4,000 years ago comports with the evidence God left behind in His creation.

I would never argue against there being a ton of guesswork and guestimates in the alternatives you suggest. Certainly... myriads of them.

And of course you can give a couple of examples of this guesswork and why they're problematic right (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

ETA: I'm not the one positing multi-million-ton rocks are being thrown into the air by massive geysers anyway. That's you and dad's idea. I'm just following the rabbit hole and pointing out where it leads.

 

[dad]

Actually that is not the claim of the Big-Bang-atheists. Their claim is that there were "entirely different laws of physics" back with the big bang happened

-- But they use our laws till the last moment and then, because it doesn't fit anymore they say it is unknown. The fact is it is unknown long before that! They don't even know the basics and all models are based on faith alone, including distances.

so then "no gravity" and no electromagnetic forces in the first few moments of the "big bang" but then all these forces of nature - 'suddenly came into existence' once the big bang got going and temp went up high enough, and space-time fabric had expanded out far enough.... "as the story goes".

Yes unfounded insane godless fables are like that.

Same box of crackerjacks used for life "self organizing" from abiotic matter.

Another way to express this thought is to say it is the same spirit behind it. Anti Christ, demonic.

 

[JacksBratt]

Even three or four people is enough to break the telephone chain.

Really? Think of that next time that you are hearing a story about something your grandfather did... totally unbelievable? Or, about what happened in the first or second world war.. guess we should toss all that stuff out too.

I don't think you realize the strength of this chain of communication. You (Adam) tell your wife (Methuselah), she tells her sister(Shem) and her sister tells your mother in law(Jacob)... how solid is that story? I'm betting that your mother in law believes it to be what you really said.

Then where are the originals?

Don't change the subject... You said copies of copies of copies.. you didn't indicate anything about the location of the originals.. that is of no concern in this discussion.

Of course I believe in the spiritual. What does that have to do with the question I asked? Are you claiming that Satan's temptations of Jesus were not literal events? How do you know?

Well, if you cannot understand how being a Christian and understanding that there is a whole other dimension of spiritual worlds beyond ours... and the fact that Christ is from there, other bible events have given us glimpses of it before, on many occasions, and how the whole event of the Temptation of Christ, by Satan, and whether it is literal or not.. has absolutely no impact as an argument for anything when you use it to ask me if I believe it happened and conclude as "where is it" in relation to the mountain...

Total empty point. Just wordage.

God's word is true. Man's interpretation of that Word is fallible.

Ya, I hear that a lot when someone wants to go against the commonly agreed upon standard of events of the Bible.

Go ahead though. Your free to take it which ever way makes you feel better.

 

[JacksBratt]

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.

Nikola Tesla

 

[dad]

Too bad you have no evidence of the "former state" and no evidence to support your claim that rocks did not get as hot as they now do.

Too bad I have ALL the evidence of history and Scripture and science has literally nothing at all. Ha. How sweet it is.

Because I have seen no credible evidence to support the idea that the physical forces of the universe worked differently in the past.

Because I have seen no credible evidence to support the idea that the physical forces of the universe worked the same in the past. I also find God credible.

 

[dad]

So where is the impactor? A 6 mile diameter, multi-million ton rock falling into several miles of water is not going to be vaporized.

We don't know. Some speculate some founts of the deep erupted violently and the force was from below!? Seen anyone prove what direction it was from? Ha.

If the Chicxulub Crater and the Barringer Crater were formed during the Flood (not to mention other such as the Vredefort Crater and Sudbury Basin), why weren't they worn away equally as the waters left the earth?

Not sure about the smaller one. But that would not exactly kill life on earth.

Distance isn't remotely the problem for Supernova Remnants (SNRs). SNRs take millions of years to form. In a 6,000 year-old universe, why do we have any SNRs at all?

Yes it is a problem. What if it were small as a fist and say really only 3 light years in distance away? Would that affect your numbers? You need to know the basics.

 

[benelchi]

Many in the church no longer insist that, nor believe that the Bible means what it says, because they believe it to be allegorical.

Maybe many in the Church today, like those in the early church before them, recognize that while the Genesis account is true history (and not Allegory), the "days" in Genesis were something very different from the days we know today. Augustine of Hippo (4th century) noted that "What these days were like it is highly difficult or even impossible for us to imagine, let alone say. We see, I mean to say, that the days as we know them have evening only as the result of sunset and morning only as the result of sunrise. But the first three days of creation passed without any sun; the sun is reported to have been created on the forth day. Scripture tells us that originally at least the light was created by the word of God, and God is said to have divided the light from darkness and to have called the light day and the darkness night. But the nature of that light, by what shift back and forth it cause morning and evening and what kind of thing evening and morning were are questions that are far beyond the reach of our perception. Nor can our understanding see the way which it is true, though that it is true we must believe untroubled by doubt." And he was one of many in the first few centuries of the Church who rejected the idea of literal 24 hour days, centuries before questions about Darwinism ever arose. Augustine seems to have taken God's words to Job pretty seriously, maybe it is time for much of the rest of the church to do the same.

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, "Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? "Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? "Or who enclosed the sea with doors, When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; When I made a cloud its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band, And I placed boundaries on it, And I set a bolt and doors, And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop '? "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it? "It is changed like clay under the seal; And they stand forth like a garment. "And from the wicked their light is withheld, And the uplifted arm is broken. "Have you entered into the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in the recesses of the deep? "Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? "Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this." (Job 38:1-18 NASB)​

 

[Queller]

Really? Think of that next time that you are hearing a story about something your grandfather did... totally unbelievable?

Hearing directly from a single person about something that person did isn't anywhere near what we are talking about. We are talking about Person A hearing about something, telling Person B about it then dying. Person B waits 300 years to tell Person C about then later dies. Person C waits another 300 years to tell Person D who finally writes it down. How accurate do you think Person D's account will be?

And yes, I know the time frames I gave aren't exact to the Biblical ages. This is for example only.

That Or, about what happened in the first or second world war.. guess we should toss all that stuff out too.

We have literally hundreds of thousands of eyewitness accounts of what happened during WWI & WWII. We even have direct participants of those wars still living (WWII at least, I'm not sure about WWI).

I don't think you realize the strength of this chain of communication. You (Adam) tell your wife (Methuselah), she tells her sister(Shem) and her sister tells your mother in law(Jacob)... how solid is that story? I'm betting that your mother in law believes it to be what you really said.

Did over a thousand years pass between between me telling my wife and her sister telling her mother?

Don't change the subject... You said copies of copies of copies.. you didn't indicate anything about the location of the originals.. that is of no concern in this discussion.

I said we don't have the originals. You said we do. Where are the originals?

Well, if you cannot understand how being a Christian and understanding that there is a whole other dimension of spiritual worlds beyond ours... and the fact that Christ is from there, other bible events have given us glimpses of it before, on many occasions, and how the whole event of the Temptation of Christ, by Satan, and whether it is literal or not.. has absolutely no impact as an argument for anything when you use it to ask me if I believe it happened and conclude as "where is it" in relation to the mountain...

Total empty point. Just wordage.

Well, yes, your above post is nothing but wordage that ducks the question I asked.

Do you believe that the temptations of Christ by Satan were real events that happened as described or not?

Ya, I hear that a lot when someone wants to go against the commonly agreed upon standard of events of the Bible.

Go ahead though. Your free to take it which ever way makes you feel better.

Do you have any evidence that the commonly agreed upon standard of events of Genesis (that is, that which is believed by a majority of Christians) is that they are literal?

 

[Queller]

Too bad I have ALL the evidence of history and Scripture and science has literally nothing at all. Ha. How sweet it is.

The evidence of your interpretation of Scripture supports you.

All the evidence of science and history is against you. If you feel otherwise feel free to present some empirical evidence for the claim.

I'm betting you won't.

Because I have seen no credible evidence to support the idea that the physical forces of the universe worked the same in the past. I also find God credible.

More childish repetition of my post.

 

[Queller]

We don't know. Some speculate some founts of the deep erupted violently and the force was from below!? Seen anyone prove what direction it was from? Ha.

Why don't we know? A multi-million ton iron-nickel meteorite should be fairly easy to find.

Not sure about the smaller one. But that would not exactly kill life on earth.

I'm not claiming anything about killing all life on earth. Please stay focused on what I'm actually asking instead of what you wish I was asking.

The question on the table is, If Flood geology and your idea is correct, that the Chicxulub Crater and the Barringer Crater were formed during the Flood (not to mention other such as the Vredefort Crater and Sudbury Basin), why weren't they worn away equally as the waters left the earth?

Do you have answer or will you continue to avoid the question?

I know which way I'm betting.

Yes it is a problem. What if it were small as a fist and say really only 3 light years in distance away? Would that affect your numbers? You need to know the basics.

A supernova as small as fist? And only three light years away? Do you know anything at all about science?

Proxima Centauri is the closest star to earth at 4.24 light years away. It is approximately 14% of the size of the sun (diameter of about 120,000 miles) and we can just barely see it.

What in the world makes you think we would be able to see a supernova the size of a fist (at most a diameter of five inches) from 3 light years away?

 

[dad]

We see, I mean to say, that the days as we know them have evening only as the result of sunset and morning only as the result of sunrise. But the first three days of creation passed without any sun; the sun is reported to have been created on the forth day. Scripture tells us that originally at least the light was created by the word of God, and God is said to have divided the light from darkness and to have called the light day and the darkness night. But the nature of that light, by what shift back and forth it cause morning and evening and what kind of thing evening and morning were are questions that are far beyond the reach of our perception. Nor can our understanding see the way which it is true, though that it is true we must believe untroubled by doubt."

Which part of this says a day is not a day? What, because the poor guy didn't know what light existed before the sun??

 

[Queller]

Maybe many in the Church today, like those in the early church before them, recognize that while the Genesis account is true history (and not Allegory), the "days" in Genesis were something very different from the days we know today.

If the days referred to in Genesis are anything other than literal, wouldn't that by definition make them allegorical?

Allegory 1 : the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence

 

[benelchi]

Which part of this says a day is not a day?

Here is another quote form Augustine that MIGHT help you to better understand what he thought.

"As early Christian writers note, the six "days" of creation could hardly have been solar days such as we now know, for according to the account in Genesis the sun was not made until the forth "day.""​

What, because the poor guy didn't know what light existed before the sun??

Wow, are you really implying that Augustine was stupid?

 

[dad]

The evidence of your interpretation of Scripture supports you.

All the evidence of science and history is against you. If you feel otherwise feel free to present some empirical evidence for the claim.

I'm betting you won't.

More childish repetition of my post.

If you had some bible case I suspect we would have seen it by now. You are in no position to question a solid bible case apparently. But, go ahead, make my day...

 

[benelchi]

If the days referred to in Genesis are anything other than literal, wouldn't that by definition make them allegorical?

Allegory 1 : the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence

Would you classify this verse as "allegorical?"

"In the course of time, at the end of two years, his bowels came out because of the disease, and he died in great agony. His people made no fire in his honor, like the fires made for his fathers." (2 Chr. 21:19 ESV)​

 

[dad]

Here is another quote form Augustine that MIGHT help you to better understand what he thought.

"As early Christian writers note, the six "days" of creation could hardly have been solar days such as we now know, for according to the account in Genesis the sun was not made until the forth "day.""​

Wow, are you really implying that Augustine was stupid?

I agree, the first few were not solar anything. But God knows a day from a year. Give Him some credit.

 

[benelchi]

I agree, the first few were not solar anything. But God knows a day from a year. Give Him some credit.

I trust that God knows but I have serious doubts that you do.

Just out of curiosity, how does YOUR bible translate 2 Chr. 21:19? Were the translators of your bible wrong?

 

[dad]

Why don't we know? A multi-million ton iron-nickel meteorite should be fairly easy to find.

?? Where does this come in? You mean if there was a forceful violent eruption from under the earth? What, we would expect some iron nickel meteorite?

I'm not claiming anything about killing all life on earth. Please stay focused on what I'm actually asking instead of what you wish I was asking.

Well, some claim that if all the impacts happened in a few thousand years we would be dead. You should be clear what you claim I guess.

The question on the table is, If Flood geology and your idea is correct, that the Chicxulub Crater and the Barringer Crater were formed during the Flood (not to mention other such as the Vredefort Crater and Sudbury Basin), why weren't they worn away equally as the waters left the earth?

Why would all these have to be flood era impacts? The main issue is what state existed when they fell. Or, if the big one in Mexico were a fountain of the deep remnant, why would we expect it to be the same os all other areas on earth? There was great mountain building and uplift, and continents wafting around real fast and etc..presumably after the flood!

A supernova as small as fist? And only three light years away? Do you know anything at all about science?

Yes I know they assume time exists where stars are! But I know they do not know that. So we have NO idea how many miles away any deep space object is. It it were 3 light years in distance (not time) you wouldn't know. You might assume it was 100 or q billion light years.

Proxima Centauri is the closest star to earth at 4.24 light years away. It is approximately 14% of the size of the sun (diameter of about 120,000 miles) and we can just barely see it.

Nope! The distance is measured how? Time is involved and the assumption time is homogenous..no? FORGET ALL distances to stars. You do not really know after all. Your whole idea of creation is dead wrong!

What in the world makes you think we would be able to see a supernova the size of a fist (at most a diameter of five inches) from 3 light years away?

If it was a lot closer, how would you know the size?

 

[dad]

I trust that God knows but I have serious doubts that you do.

Claiming God doesn't know what a day is is anything but trusting. No one says it was a 'solar' day. That is absurd. If the sun was created mid week why would anyone try to label the days solar days?? Days were here BEFORE the sun. The sun is for US to help also with marking time and days etc. Don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[benelchi]

Claiming God doesn't know what a day is is anything but trusting. No one says it was a 'solar' day. That is absurd. If the sun was created mid week why would anyone try to label the days solar days?? Days were here BEFORE the sun. The sun is for US to help also with marking time and days etc. Don't put the cart before the horse.

I noticed that you didn't answer my question:

Just out of curiosity, how does YOUR bible translate 2 Chr. 21:19? Were the translators of your bible wrong?​