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How to define freewill operationally?

tonychanyt

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I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally :)

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of freewill without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "freewill". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will answer whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and recognize whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the answer is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have freewill?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?

Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".
 
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HTacianas

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I know that I have my own free will. I just don't know how to define the term operationally.

Exodus 35:

29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of free will without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "free will". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of free will. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will decide whether x has free will or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and decide whether x is an instance of free will or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the decision is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have free will?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
Does a dog have free will?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone has free will?

Alternatively, instead of "free will", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".

Free will is merely the ability to make choices. In our case it is the ability to choose to do either good or evil. Anything other than that renders life itself a case of path of least resistance. Of course some people choose to take the path of least resistance but then there are others who don't.
 
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Kale100

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Man this sounds like a difficult but potentially fun puzzle.
It sounds like you want a definition that can be independently tested, so it has to be based on some sort of observable behavior.
Free will colloquially means the ability to choose one or another thing. I guess it shouldn't be random either but meaningful, i.e. one choice is 'better' than another. But if something always chose the best option, that's not really 'will' as much as math. So something that knowingly engages in a self-destructive behavior? The subject should also have the means to not engage in that behavior. That then begs the question how do you tell whether something 'knows' something? Then there's the matter that a subject can be informed, but not believe.
Is it even possible to operationally define the subjective?
 

tonychanyt

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Free will is merely the ability to make choices.
Thank you for the simple definition.

Does Satan have free will?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
Does a dog have free will?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have free will?
 
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Clare73

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I know that I have my own free will. I just don't know how to define the term operationally.
Good question, it's not subjective, Scripture shows what the free will of fallen man is:

Power to freely and willingly, without external force or constraint, choose what he prefers.
Exodus 35:
29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.
The Bible assumes the existence of free will without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "free will". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of free will. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will decide whether x has free will or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and decide whether x is an instance of free will or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the decision is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have free will?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
Does a dog have free will?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone has free will?

Alternatively, instead of "free will", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".
 
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tonychanyt

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Good question, it's not subjective, Scripture shows what the free will of fallen man is:

Power to freely and willingly, without external force or constraint, to choose what he prefers.
Does Satan have free will according to this definition of free will?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
Does a dog have free will?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have free will?
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

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Thank you for the simple definition.

Does Satan have free will?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
Does a dog have free will?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have free will?

Satan and Pharaoh both have, or had, free will. In the case of Pharaoh we have to be careful about some of the language used to describe him. Sophisticated AI would only have free will inasmuch as it is programmed to have free will. Dogs and fish have a form of free will, meaning they can make rudimentary choices of some things, but both live for the most part by instinct. After the resurrection we will likely have free will and that may start things all over again. We don't know.

As to free will we can look to Isaiah and Jonah:

Isa 7:16 “For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good...

Jon 4:11 “And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left...

The child prophesied by Isaiah would become of age, knowing good from evil, and choosing one or the other. In Jonah, children are described as those "who cannot discern between their right hand and their left". Not knowing right from left is a Hebrew expression meaning not knowing right from wrong. Which of course begs the question "do children have free will". That could go on and on.
 

trophy33

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Free will means that our choices are not logically necessary, like a triangle has to have 3 sides.

Though our choices are certain, because they are not random, we are not forced to make those choices - either by an external agent or by logical necessity.
 
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d taylor

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A person has limited free will. Example a believe who has believed in Jesus and received God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and is now a born again child of God. Can not at a later time, give back their Eternal Life they received from God. Even if they get mad at God and want nothing to do with God or even end up hating God for something that happens in their life.

So once a born again child of God that can never be undone.
 
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tonychanyt

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Free will means that our choices are not logically necessary, like a triangle has to have 3 sides.
Does Satan have a free will according to this definition of free will?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
Does a dog have free will?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have free will?
 
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trophy33

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Does Satan have a free will according to this definition of free will?
Yes.
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will?
Yes.
Does a sophisticated AI have free will?
There is no true AI, yet, its all just machine learning.
Does a dog have free will?
Yes.
How about a fish?
Yes.
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have free will?
Yes.
 
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Clare73

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Does Satan have free will according to this definition of free will?
According to the operation of free will as we see it in Scripture; i.e., a matter of moral choice, the answer is yes.

Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have free will? - Yes
Does a sophisticated AI have free will? - Not moral
Does a dog have free will? - Not moral
How about a fish? - Not moral
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have free will? - appears so
 

Clare73

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That's an interesting angle to define moral free will :)
That is its historical philosophical parameter used in determining human responsibility for sin.
 
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fhansen

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I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally :)

Exodus 35:

29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of freewill without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "freewill". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will decide whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and decide whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the decision is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have freewill?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?

Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".
Free will, as demonstrated in Eden, is the ability to oppose even God's will. Nothing in creation except rational, created beings who've been given that gift, can do such a thing- and that freedom is the only reason we have sin, moral evil, in this world. As descendants of Adam and recipients of his legacy with a world where God's will isn't necessarily done, where good and evil are literally known, where we're alienated from Him at birth, He comes to us in various manners with grace, He knocks upon our door, He convicts us of our sin and informs us of His goodness, and we may or may not respond, we may or may not carry on the family tradition initiated by Adam. We may continue to prefer ourselves to God, to remain in darkness; we may not even want to know Him, or want to know Him for long.
 
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tonychanyt

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Free will, as demonstrated on Eden, is the ability to oppose even God's will.
Does Satan have freewill according to your definition?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day,

I really think Augustine set the biblical realities of freedom, ( or lack thereof) for all of man:

He argued that fallen man still has a free will (liberium arbitrium) but has lost his moral liberty (libertas). The state of original sin leaves us in the wretched condition of being unable to refrain from sinning. We still are able to choose what we desire, but our desires remain chained by our evil impulses. He argued that the freedom that remains in the will always leads to sin. Thus in the flesh we are free only to sin, a hollow freedom indeed. It is freedom without liberty, a real moral bondage. True liberty can only come from without, from the work of God on the soul. Therefore we are not only partly dependent upon grace for our conversion but totally dependent upon grace."



Does Satan have freewill according to your definition? Yes the ability to choose and will always chose that which he most desires.
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill? Yes the ability to choose and will always chose that which he most desires.
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill? No
Does a dog have freewill? according to it's nature and instinct yes.
How about a fish? according to it's nature and instinct yes.
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?


In Him,

Bill
 
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