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I would say "yes" and "no". What if you could ask Paul directly what he meant? And what about all the things passed on orally by the apostles about the Scriptures you don't have access to now? You don't think that is an advantage?
I would expect Paul to answer I meant what I said.
If they are in agreement with the Scriptures, then I already have them. . .in the Scriptures with which they agree.
I'm not sure there are enough occurences to make any conclusions since I can only find 2 instances of prosgnosis in the NT, 2 in Judith, and one in 1 Clement(commenting on 1 Pet).
There's a disadvantage in that as well, especially since much of what the ECF wrote has been built upon so that it may not be understood as intended(for example, Iraeneus wrote of the authority of Apostolic tradition but it appears he was talking about the New Testament rather than the Catholic/orthodox view of Apostolic tradition)
I think that is a reasonable answer IF you never read commentaries and never listen to anyone laying out the Bible and never read any study guides or books about the Bible. Since you say you only need the Bible to understand the Bible.
My point exactly.
If it is not in the Scripture, is it authoritative?
No, not like the Bible. I'm not fully sure what point you want to make. Then we have no real value of the ECF writings? Is that it? I would say we would have great value of having a Bible study lead by Paul. More so than of Matthew Henry, Martin Luther or any other theologian. In all humbleness I think we all should agree on that? I'm sure Paul would teach us things from the Bible that have never entered our minds before, not from any theologian and not from any Bible study. At least I'm sure about that.
I don't know if there is something implied by calling a theologian divine. It sounded embarrassing to me. If it just means a teacher of theology, then fine.
But let us think about this a little. Were Jesus' words authoritative that never got into the Bible? We would have to say "Yes!" Then were Jesus' words that never got into the Bible, that were passed on orally by the apostles authoritative? Hm...
As a fallible person, you have no right to presume that, not when 100 billion souls are potentially at stake. Anyone could shirk a real responsibility by using such words. If my aged parents are starving, and I refuse to feed them, I could deflect with, "Nobody's hunger depends on my doctrine or practice. I'm not the only tool in the divine tool box."
Certainly. I just wanted to know where you stand on that. There are several here who seem to me to give them an inordinate amount of weight and authority, as though they were almost apostles or something. To me the notion that they are nearly infallible is ludicrous.
Interesting thoughts. But not everything the apostles did and said were authoritative, as Paul himself said even within scripture, as though in parenthesis, "To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—...", and as we know, Peter got sidetracked in giving ground to the Judaisers. Were anyone's quotes of Jesus' words, if not included in Scripture, authoritative for nowadays as what Jesus really said?
I think you are right, but I will share a short story from life. I got saved in summer of 2010. Shortly after that when I was out walking the Holy Spirit told me to go up to a person with a "message" from God. For some reason it made me terrified, thinking what would happen if I did. I hesitated for some time and the opportunity went by. This lead me to the worst "faith crises" in my life, but that is another story. Anyhow, this woman the Holy Spirit told me to go up to, will someone else deliver that message to her? Or was I responsible for her not getting the message, and possibly not being saved. I have thought about this a lot.
