How to bear witness to the truth of the Trinity

[dlamberth]

I was where you are, .. and I hope you take another good look at this "reality", .. 'cause I'm telling you it's nothing like you think! It's an illusion, a painting of God, a reality like in that movie "What Dreams May Come". You cannot paint God for He is Spirit, cannot be seen.
It doesn't have to be paintings, man can paint very well with his words too, I read some books that portrayed a really beautiful "picture" of God, even psychedelic ones.

Thanks. What I'm understanding is that your not knowing what I take as reality or what I think. If only you knew. I'm finding it kind of funny actually.

For the record, I'm unable to NOT see the Divine in my infant grand-daughters smile, or in the tender love a mother has for her children, or in a mountain meadow in full spring bloom, or in the souls of the animals, trees and plants around me. With your mention of psychedelic pictures, being a 60's child, back in the day I've done my share of psychedelics. This vista that I live in today is way different. God can be seen, maybe not directly, but through His Creation the illumination of God through out and within, is clear. Interestingly this is the point that drove my deconversion many years ago. The extent and experience of Christ for me had became Cosmic wide and ran through the whole of humanity. But that was and in most circles still is a big no, no. Moving on was the best thing to happen. I think what's at issue here is the question: What does it mean to have God as one's reality in life?

 

[awitch]

Without duress, .. so having someone sneak in your back yard under police protection and release your Freon from your air-conditioning every year so they can come and charge $800 on repairs (and not really repair) a few year old air-conditioning wouldn't have anything to do with threats, violence, constraints, or other action brought to bear on someone to do something against their will or better judgment?

What are you talking about?

You never lived under a totalitarian Communist regime, .. they too were confident they were on the right track. They felt that the reason why "they didn't get where they should be" was because they were too lenient, .. not enough torture and executions. They too had their gods expectations all laid out for them, like Carl Marx "Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844"

I know a lot of Christians who are confident they are on the right track, too.

Then what would you say it popped out of, and expanding into, .. I'm still waiting for an acceptable scientific answer for a theory that not just you, but is being taught to our children as fact!?

We don't know for sure yet. That does not necessitate the existence of god.

The Bible doesn't say that God created the Heavens and the earth from a mans bones, where did you hear that from, .. Dawkins, .. or Hitchens?

The Bible. Something about the dust of the earth and Adam's rib.

In a computer gaming-world, all we have is rules and laws that create that world .. a computer language. The characters can't go through walls simply because the creator of the game decided it that way.
What's the difference with us in our God created world, which was spoken (language) into being?

Is life just a video game for God?

Once a BB-Evolution scientist can show a "computer simulation" how the computer gaming world, and those computer characters can come into existence from "natural selection" (we could speed up the clock), .. then I could accept that.

Promises, promises.

Until then, neither the Big Bang story, or Evolution is a scientific theory, let alone fact.

Then you don't understand what a scientific theory is and that makes you wholly unqualified to debate the details of evolutionary theory.

Wishful thinking? We could use science, no? Like "observing the world around us, people, animals, after they die, they turn back to dust. So the Bible does have the answers, scientifically proven too!

I'm afraid the movie Flatliners was not a documentary.

Yes, breaking not the Generals, but Gods rule!

I reject your god's rules because I don't believe in your god. At least, not the way most Christians explain him.

Maybe in High School ROTC, but not in the real world.
Here is a scenario: The army is hiding in the woods from the enemy, the enemy is nearby, .. one soldier decides to gather some sticks to build a little fire so he can roast some marshmallows while they wait.
Disobedient leads to sin, sin leads to death, like in the above example.

Does that really justify it for you?

So you don't believe in Evolution either? The gazelle, the lion, the human, .. all supposedly evolved from amoeba in a 2.1 billion/trillion/million Carl Sagan year old primordial soup, .. did they not?

They did not. If you had even a basic understanding of evolution you would know that.

Would thousands of debates over twenty years with those who claim to know all about Evolution count?

Were they evolutionary biologists?

No, but why waist time on a very complex topic that was based on observing the finished product (live humans and animals) and never once in two hundred years since the Religions invention has anyone observed one species evolve/speciate/mutate/give birth to a completely different species?

That's not even how evolution works.

"But it happens!!"

they say, .. "look at all theses skull and bones, and all these millions of fossils! What more proof do you want?"

I agree. A pile of bones does not make a case for evolution. But it's a lie that a pile of bones is their argument and you know that.

Where I'm going with this is, what's better? To kill with fiery hailstorm, those who in Cancer Hospitals take up to six years to kill a healthy child with chemo therapy and radiation treatment till they develop and slowly, agonizingly die of cancer, or just turn a blind-eye and let it keep on happening?

Well, if you really believe that, then why don't you go blow up some cancer hospitals? Why doesn't god?

So in Satan worship, here they have a baby for sacrifice, and the High Priest says: "Now remember, do as thou wilt, just don't harm him!"

A patently false lie.

Besides, what does the Satanist consider harm, .. or a lie, since Satanism is about 'opposites'!? Lucifer was good, got Adam and Eve to think for themselves, opened their eyes, while God their Creator is evil, wanted to keep them imprisoned in the Garden, ignorant, not to question anything, .. etc.

I'm not a Satanist so maybe you should ask one, if you're sincerely interested.

God bless you to become a real scientist. Jesus taught the we are no longer under the law, but under grace. So it is us Believers of the Way that can do as we wilt, because it is Gods Holy Spirit that guides us to harm none.
What law does Satanism abide by when they say "Do as though wilt, but harm none"? What would they consider harm when they see humans as animals!? Having someone for dinner can have a totally different meaning for someone who believes he is an animal that goes by instinct, .. just reacting to its environment!?[/QUOTE]

You'd have to ask someone who adheres to that specific expression. On my path it's, "Try to reasonably minimize harm".

 

[Arius]

Thanks. What I'm understanding is that your not knowing what I take as reality or what I think. If only you knew. I'm finding it kind of funny actually.

For the record, I'm unable to NOT see the Divine in my infant grand-daughters smile, or in the tender love a mother has for her children, or in a mountain meadow in full spring bloom, or in the souls of the animals, trees and plants around me. With your mention of psychedelic pictures, being a 60's child, back in the day I've done my share of psychedelics. This vista that I live in today is way different. God can be seen, maybe not directly, but through His Creation the illumination of God through out and within, is clear. Interestingly this is the point that drove my deconversion many years ago. The extent and experience of Christ for me had became Cosmic wide and ran through the whole of humanity. But that was and in most circles still is a big no, no. Moving on was the best thing to happen. I think what's at issue here is the question:
What does it mean to have God as one's reality in life?

Money, .. lots and lots of money, .. and fame. You know, where we can go and enjoy traveling and hiking to enjoy Gods nature. To be able to buy our grandchildren nice things, to see more smiles on their beautiful faces. But:
Turning the other cheek, .. give all that you have and follow me, .. be hated by everyone for my names sake, etc. will not get anyone to even see the mountain meadows in full spring bloom, got to put that O.T. in.

 

[Arius]

What are you talking about?

technological advancement.

I know a lot of Christians who are confident they are on the right track, too.

Yes, .. Religion requires blind faith, so trusting that "they are on the right track" without question may portray confidence.

We don't know for sure yet. That does not necessitate the existence of god.

So teaching "we don't know for sure" as fact is better than the only Possible Answer; Infinite God?

The Bible. Something about the dust of the earth and Adam's rib.

Everything we create comes from the ground, no?

Is life just a video game for God?

.. only the characters have souls, not game-controller that only God controls.

Promises, promises.

No, really. We can simulate everything as long as we define everything needed for the simulation.
A blank screen with the computer off, and only the internal clock going should produce a singularity, then a Big Bang, and slowly an intelligible universe.
It happens, .. remember?

Then you don't understand what a scientific theory is and that makes you wholly unqualified to debate the details of evolutionary theory.

So digging up graves and collecting skull and bones is the answer? And if that doesn't work, behead a few thousand Aborigines, boil down their skulls and call it the "missing link", .. proof of evolution?

I'm afraid the movie Flatliners was not a documentary.

I didn't know flat liners were left to rot and turn to dust?

I reject your god's rules because I don't believe in your god. At least, not the way most Christians explain him.

What makes you think a Religion, any Religion could reveal Infinite God to you? They have their own gods that they control.
I doubt you know my God.

Does that really justify it for you?

Umm, yeah, it's how it is.

They did not. If you had even a basic understanding of evolution you would know that.

So where did evolution start, and what caused it?

Were they evolutionary biologists?

Biologist that digs up graves and adores skull and bones, .. that type of biologists? Yes.

That's not even how evolution works.

Exactly, .. it doesn't and evolutionists even admit that. One species never evolves into another species, they only evolve into the magical species they call "Common Ancestor", .. only no one has ever seen one. Only Peleoartist drawings exist, but what type of species, .. that's anyones guess.

I agree. A pile of bones does not make a case for evolution. But it's a lie that a pile of bones is their argument and you know that.

Then record speciation, .. like that would ever happen? Just fossils and skull and bones as evidence for Evolution.

Well, if you really believe that, then why don't you go blow up some cancer hospitals? Why doesn't god?

Fluoride minds. It's like saying: "Why didn't the Jews blow up and escape from the Concentration camps if they knew they were being poisoned and cremated? Why would they walk into the showers knowing no one comes out of there alive?"

A patently false lie.

Exactly, it would never happen.

I'm not a Satanist so maybe you should ask one, if you're sincerely interested.

I have.

God bless you to become a real scientist. Jesus taught the we are no longer under the law, but under grace. So it is us Believers of the Way that can do as we wilt, because it is Gods Holy Spirit that guides us to harm none.
What law does Satanism abide by when they say "Do as though wilt, but harm none"? What would they consider harm when they see humans as animals!? Having someone for dinner can have a totally different meaning for someone who believes he is an animal that goes by instinct, .. just reacting to its environment!?

You'd have to ask someone who adheres to that specific expression. On my path it's, "Try to reasonably minimize harm".

It's War, .. there is no such thing in war.

 

[awitch]

So teaching "we don't know for sure" as fact is better than the only Possible Answer; Infinite God?

"We don't know" is an infinitely better answer. It's honest.

Everything we create comes from the ground, no?

Read Genesis 2:7 again.

.. only the characters have souls, not game-controller that only God controls.

That makes it more horrifying.

No, really. We can simulate everything as long as we define everything needed for the simulation.
A blank screen with the computer off, and only the internal clock going should produce a singularity, then a Big Bang, and slowly an intelligible universe.
It happens, .. remember?

You know very well that's not how it works.

So digging up graves and collecting skull and bones is the answer? And if that doesn't work, behead a few thousand Aborigines, boil down their skulls and call it the "missing link", .. proof of evolution?

Reread the part that you quoted. Obviously it is not.

What makes you think a Religion, any Religion could reveal Infinite God to you?

I don't.

I doubt you know my God.

If he's as scripture or most Christians describe him, I never want to.

So where did evolution start, and what caused it?

Evolution starts with reproduction. It's driven by several factors; primary natural selection and to a much lesser extent, mutation. There are other causes as well, but the scope of this topic is pretty extensive.

Biologist that digs up graves and adores skull and bones, .. that type of biologists? Yes.

You're thinking of paleontologists?

I think you've demonstrated a lack of understanding of even the basics of evolution. If you're really sincere about understanding it, I suggest doing some research from reputable sources and then coming back. If you're short on time, I suggest the Crash Course Biology series on Youtube

 

[Arius]

"We don't know" is an infinitely better answer. It's honest.

Thank you for your response awitch, I enjoy debating with you.

so "denial" is honest? How can one deny the obvious like Infinite and Eternal God?
how could we even consider the universe a singularity?
Sure we can say we came from a sort of singularity, our mothers egg, one cell, two, four, eight until it expanded into trillions of cells to where we are.
But let's take our mothers egg out of the equation, then our father, and then our mother, our ancestors, all life on earth, then the earth, the heavens, the universe, and let's see if the egg will fluctuate out of nothing, fertilize itself for no reason, .. and create ALL that's necessary to grow a human egg!?

Everything we create comes from the ground, no?

Read Genesis 2:7 again.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

OK, I read it!?

That makes it more horrifying.

?? That God didn't connect a controller to each of us to control us, like we do to game characters?
Don't you enjoy your freedom, your infinite choices at will?

You know very well that's not how it works.

OK pagan (pun intended) show me how it works. I'm serious awitch, can you describe how YOU imagine the universe coming into existence without our Infinite and Eternal conscious Creator carefully forming each created thing with and by His Word?
Talking about eloquent speech, all we have to do is look around us.

Reread the part that you quoted. Obviously it is not.

You said I don't know what a scientific theory is?
The scientific theory on evolution is evolution:
Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms, and molecules.

This boils down to that every individually distinct living creature, including man, evolved from an unknown, never seen, never found creatures called "Common Ancestors", .. from a butterfly to us humans.
I know I am different from my parents going all the way back to Adam and Eve, we are all a little different, .. but can you explain what animal was the "Common Ancestor" that my great ancestor Adam evolved from? That is all I would like to know?
Once you, or ANY evolution-Biology-scientist can tell me that, then maybe you can identify a few other "Common Ancestors" of ANY other animals species, like the "common ancestor" of the gorilla, ... what distinct species was the common ancestor of the gorilla?

I don't.

Yet you keep leaning towards the BB-Evolution Religion/belief, .. why?

If he's as scripture or most Christians describe him, I never want to.

If He's like Scriptures describe Him? It's OK, neither do Christians.

Evolution starts with reproduction.

I thought reproduction evolved too?

It's driven by several factors; primary natural selection and to a much lesser extent, mutation. There are other causes as well, but the scope of this topic is pretty extensive.

That too is suspiciously fantastic for me, this natural selection, how perfect it works. Eight million distinct species, all beautifully designed to where they can live for millions of years, no mutants, like three headed monkeys with tails growing from their ears running around, .. slowly and agonizingly dying? Maybe that Common Ancestor saves them all, they give birth to that New species, and just disappear without a trace. Boy that Mother Nature is one intelligent designer don't you agree?

You're thinking of paleontologists?

noun
noun: biology; noun: biol.

1. the study of living organisms, divided into many specialized fields that cover their morphology, physiology, anatomy, behavior, origin, and distribution.

"origin", that's where the biologists dig up graves, collect skull and bones and tell us what man evolved from, no?

I think you've demonstrated a lack of understanding of even the basics of evolution. If you're really sincere about understanding it, I suggest doing some research from reputable sources and then coming back. If you're short on time, I suggest the Crash Course Biology series on Youtube

Please don't give me this same old Richard Dawkins sarcasm: "Go learn about evolution, and when you pass all the exams, you will understand and accept Evolution", .. lol, .. like how would anyone pass if they don't accept what Evolutionists teach?

How about you just show me ONE, .. just ONE "Common Ancestor" between ANY of the 8.2 millions living distinct species?

They ALL evolved from single celled bacteria, and we have all the stages of evolution right here living next to each other in Africa.
Here is what they say the "common ancestor" of the gazelle is:

The gazelle genera are Gazella, Eudorcas, and Nanger. The taxonomy of these genera is a confused one, and the classification of species and subspecies has been an unsettled issue. Currently, the genus Gazella is widely considered to contain about 10 species.[2] Four further species are extinct: the red gazelle, the Arabian gazelle, the Queen of Sheba's gazelle, and the Saudi gazelle. Most surviving gazelle species are considered threatened to varying degrees. Closely related to the true gazelles are the Tibetan and Mongolian gazelles (species of the genus Procapra), the blackbuck of Asia, and the African springbok.
One widely familiar gazelle is the African species Thomson's gazelle (Eudorcas thomsoni), which is around 60 to 80 cm (24 to 31 in) in height at the shoulder and is coloured brown and white with a distinguishing black stripe. The males have long, often curved, horns. Like many other prey species, Tommies and springboks (as they are familiarly called) exhibit a distinctive behaviour of stotting (running and jumping high before fleeing) when they are threatened by predators, such as cheetahs.

Oh yeah, .. they DONT say. Hmm.. ??

I didn't ask for their distinct behavior, but the specific name of the species they evolved from?

Now, ask for the common ancestor of ANY of the 8.2 million species living on earth, including man, and this is the SAME B.S. excuse that you will get!

Not ONE Evolution biologist, grave robbing skull and bones worshipping paleontologist, taxonomist, or whatever else you want to call all these millions of Evolution-scientists has ever found ONE living Common Ancestor of ANY distinct species, .. don't that raise suspicion about this Evolution Theory for you?

I mean evolution/speciation is considered fact, .. yet no one, starting from the ape Darwin, to Richard Dawkins have ever named the type of species of ANY Common Ancestor of the eight million living species we have today!?
It's always the same bs, .. we don't know, we cant say, .. scientists are split on the decision, LOL.

You call us humans apes, .. fine, so what specific species did the human ape evolve/speciate from?

time 0:21 see where Dawkins is pointing to, that 'T' he calls "common ancestor", tell me what specific species it is?
Was it another human that looked like Ota Benga? Or was it a gorilla? It had to be another ape right? Or was it a humming bird?
What species was it?

Here, I give you 8.2 million living individual species to choose from, .. surely you can tell me what man evolved from? You can't just say "Common Ancestor" because you have 8.2 million distinct species, each has this same magical, if not supernatural "Common Ancestor". Can Lucy be the Common Ancestor for all species including the gazelle, the alligator and the butterfly??

Maybe it is you Evolutionists that need to study your evolution books, because I believe there is something critical missing between every living evolving species. You're missing; 8.2 million common ancestors, .. unless as I said that there is this supernatural "common ancestor" that comes in between every creature, and either speciate/morphs/gives birth to that next species, and then disappears from the face of the earth, .. goes back up into the supernatural realm with all the other fallen angels and demons!?

 

[awitch]

so "denial" is honest?

"I don't know because I don't have sufficient evidence to reach a definitive conclusion" is honest.

How can one deny the obvious like Infinite and Eternal God?

Because there's nothing obvious about it.
Stuff exists, therefore here is one of countless scripture sets detailing god's attributes and expectations is a factual description of reality?

how could we even consider the universe a singularity?

Look up the Big Bang Theory.

Sure we can say we came from a sort of singularity, our mothers egg, one cell, two, four, eight until it expanded into trillions of cells to where we are.
But let's take our mothers egg out of the equation, then our father, and then our mother, our ancestors, all life on earth, then the earth, the heavens, the universe, and let's see if the egg will fluctuate out of nothing, fertilize itself for no reason, .. and create ALL that's necessary to grow a human egg!?

No one is arguing that the egg comes out of nothing.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

OK, I read it!?

Good. And what do you get out it?

?? That God didn't connect a controller to each of us to control us, like we do to game characters?
Don't you enjoy your freedom, your infinite choices at will?

If god is all powerful and all knowing, then it necessitates we are preprogrammed and he doesn't even need the controller. I don't believe in omniscient and omnipotent gods and I don't believe the future is known by anyone.

OK pagan (pun intended) show me how it works. I'm serious awitch, can you describe how YOU imagine the universe coming into existence without our Infinite and Eternal conscious Creator carefully forming each created thing with and by His Word?
Talking about eloquent speech, all we have to do is look around us.

Look up the Big Bang Theory again.

You said I don't know what a scientific theory is?

A scientific theory is a well substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Now you do.

Yet you keep leaning towards the BB-Evolution Religion/belief, .. why?

Now that you know what a scientific theory is, you no longer have to erroneously refer to it as a religion.

If He's like Scriptures describe Him? It's OK, neither do Christians.

Sounds like a god failure to me.

I thought reproduction evolved too?

Reproducing organisms can evolve because of reproduction. Again, this is

That too is suspiciously fantastic for me, this natural selection, how perfect it works. Eight million distinct species, all beautifully designed to where they can live for millions of years, no mutants, like three headed monkeys with tails growing from their ears running around, .. slowly and agonizingly dying? Maybe that Common Ancestor saves them all, they give birth to that New species, and just disappear without a trace. Boy that Mother Nature is one intelligent designer don't you agree?

You didn't read up or watch the crash course did you?
There's nothing intelligent about vestigial organs, species with such inefficient digestive systems that they have to eat their own waste multiple times to absorb the nutrients, or species that have to eat their mates or siblings.

Genetic defects from mutations do occur. But those organisms often die before they can reproduce.

noun
noun: biology; noun: biol.

1. the study of living organisms, divided into many specialized fields that cover their morphology, physiology, anatomy, behavior, origin, and distribution.

"origin", that's where the biologists dig up graves, collect skull and bones and tell us what man evolved from, no?

Archaeologists and Paleontologists find the remains.

Please don't give me this same old Richard Dawkins sarcasm: "Go learn about evolution, and when you pass all the exams, you will understand and accept Evolution", .. lol, .. like how would anyone pass if they don't accept what Evolutionists teach?

You don't have to go out and get a degree, but as you have demonstrated many times already, you need to have at least a reasonable understanding of how it works if you're going to argue against it. The reality of the world does not depend on what we believe or our comfort levels.

How about you just show me ONE, .. just ONE "Common Ancestor" between ANY of the 8.2 millions living distinct species?

Look up the tree of life (for biology) and pick one.

Here is what they say the "common ancestor" of the gazelle is:
Oh yeah, .. they DONT say. Hmm.. ??

LOL. One website doesn't happen to identify common ancestor so we should toss out all evolution and just adopt the Bible, right?

Not ONE Evolution biologist, grave robbing skull and bones worshipping paleontologist, taxonomist, or whatever else you want to call all these millions of Evolution-scientists has ever found ONE living Common Ancestor of ANY distinct species, .. don't that raise suspicion about this Evolution Theory for you?

At this point, since you've basically admitted you don't really have any interest in finding the answers and are not willing to invest in any time to really learn about it, I suspect there are no answers that will satisfy you, so how about if you go back to enjoying your scripture, and I will go back to my ornithology textbook.

 

[Arius]

"I don't know because I don't have sufficient evidence to reach a definitive conclusion" is honest.

So why choose the BB-Story, you could get far better info on planet earth and the cosmos from Wookieepedia!?

Because there's nothing obvious about it.
Stuff exists, therefore here is one of countless scripture sets detailing god's attributes and expectations is a factual description of reality?

Yes stuff exist, I thought we were talking about how and the why's, .. you know, a scientific explanation of what we observe, so we wouldn't have to settle for supernatural and science fiction artist rendered explanations like the BB and the stuff that comes from NASA and CERN!?

Look up the Big Bang Theory.

I did, .. for years and years, .. still no scientist, or supernatural guru from listening to hundreds of lectures, seminars, news articles, science articles, books, etc. can explain to me what this dense universe/particle that exploded, and suddenly expanded and is expanding 'into'?

No one is arguing that the egg comes out of nothing.

But the BB-universe did?

Good. And what do you get out it?

That we truly were created in our Creators image.
God created a language (like our computer language that organizes the 1's and 0's) where with words/language He defined the dust particles, from which He created mans body, and then instead of attaching a joystick to man, He "breathed" a bit of Himself into it, and man became a living being with free will. Like Minecraft, only infinitely more complex.

If god is all powerful and all knowing, then it necessitates we are preprogrammed and he doesn't even need the controller. I don't believe in omniscient and omnipotent gods and I don't believe the future is known by anyone.

Maybe because you haven't really considered, or looked deeper into computer programming!? Like for instance the game programmers know what their game world is, and what their game characters can or cannot do. Now if those programmers could give a bit of themselves, their soul into those characters, it would give them free will.
Since God is Infinite, each spirit/mind in each of us is also Infinite, so if the game programmers could do what God did, they would be aware of what each individual character was doing, thus "omniscience".

(there are literally hundreds of programs going on trying to achieve this as we speak, like at the Blue Brain Project. This is called: Whole brain emulation (WBE), mind upload or brain upload (sometimes called "mind copying" or "mind transfer") is the hypothetical futuristic process of scanning the mental state (including long-term memory and "self") of a particular brain substrate and copying it to a computer. The computer could then run a simulation model of the brain's information processing, such that it responds in essentially the same way as the original brain (i.e., indistinguishable from the brain for all relevant purposes) and experiences having a conscious mind)
This is Not the omniscience that Religions and their supernatural gods teach, .. accusing God of totalitarian control. That's what their leader Satan wants, total control of us. But God made it that the spirit/breath of life/soul/mind in each of us is formed by the body, .. the DNA, .. it is what forms our individual characters.
So I don't think God knows what we will do next parse. Instead, having knowledge of everything that makes up our bodies, our DNA, what kind of heart we have, He can predict with extreme accuracy what we will do next, and of course He can foresee the results of those actions. There would be no purpose, or enjoyment in Creation if the characters (sons of God, both the physical and the Angelic) were all under Gods control and will.

THIS is why He sent His son Word into the world, to teach us to better guide our choices. I mean it's not hard to predict what our own teen children will do if we leave them home alone for a few days, especially for a week, right?
We can give them instructions and even warnings, but until they make them choices, no telling what those will be until they make them. Well this is what I get from observing the world around me (science) and from reading the Bible (philosophy- the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence) and listening to responses from Debating-friends like yourself. Thank you for taking time to respond.

Look up the Big Bang Theory again.

I have, .. for years, and falls short of a scientific explanation. Like my first question is: "What medium, and time frame are the Big-Bang scientists in, when visualizing this 'singularity', .. or that cosmic inflation?

A scientific theory is a well substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Now you do.

Yes, that's what "science" is, .. what does that have to do with the science fiction BB universe, .. or the fantastic, "millions and billions of years ago" Evolution stories?

Now that you know what a scientific theory is, you no longer have to erroneously refer to it as a religion.

Again, what does the definition of scientific theory have to do with the Big Bang and the Evolution stories? I believe humanity has lost their ability to differentiate between science and science fiction! Every time I mention Evolution, you refer to it as science, .. why?
You know that most of the College students can't tell the difference either?

Sounds like a god failure to me.

Yes, men worship way too many gods, not realizing they all fail to answer the Big Questions. With so much religious diversions, people can't see enough to step out of the box.

Reproducing organisms can evolve because of reproduction. Again, this is

.. evolution?

You didn't read up or watch the crash course did you?
There's nothing intelligent about vestigial organs, species with such inefficient digestive systems that they have to eat their own waste multiple times to absorb the nutrients, or species that have to eat their mates or siblings.

Yes I did, same old thing; scientific observations blended in with millions of years ago stories.

I agree: "There's nothing intelligent about vestigial organs", there are none.
You see an inefficient digestive system, and I see a very efficient one.
Species that have to eat their mates or siblings? Population control for those bugs and animals that don't have enough predators to keep them in check. Perfect creation doesn't have flaws.

Genetic defects from mutations do occur. But those organisms often die before they can reproduce.

Where are they, .. there should be billions of them dying organisms, especially after billions, and billions of years of evolution!? Like just one of those "dying out" common ancestors would be helpful to bring the story of Evolution into the realm of scientific observation.
Here is one family of apes that evolutionists been observing, hoping for at least one evidence of evolution?

Archaeologists and Paleontologists find the remains.

So Biologists are real scientists, going only as far back in origins as Adam and Eve, they don't confuse humans with animals!?

You don't have to go out and get a degree, but as you have demonstrated many times already, you need to have at least a reasonable understanding of how it works if you're going to argue against it. The reality of the world does not depend on what we believe or our comfort levels.

That's the problem, .. evolution/speciation doesn't work. They even admit evolution/speciation of one distinct species into another Never Happens, and they just don't understand that "the reality of the world does not depend on what they believe, or their comfort levels!" no matter how many stories they make up, and defend religiously.

Look up the tree of life (for biology) and pick one.

Oh yeah, there it is in every science textbook, in the evolution "Tree of Lies" the unidentified, no taxonomy creature they just call "common ancestor" between every living creature from a tadpole to a human signified with a 'T' or a 'Y'.

How can they be so sure of something so mysterious, where after hundreds of years, not one scientist has ever found even one of these millions of common ancestors splitting/speciating/morphing into two or more distinct species!?

LOL. One website doesn't happen to identify common ancestor so we should toss out all evolution and just adopt the Bible, right?

Show me ONE that does?
Would you like me to send you a Bible?

At this point, since you've basically admitted you don't really have any interest in finding the answers and are not willing to invest in any time to really learn about it, I suspect there are no answers that will satisfy you, so how about if you go back to enjoying your scripture, and I will go back to my ornithology textbook.

That's because when it comes to Evolution, or the Big bang stories: "I cant accept because I don't have sufficient evidence to reach a definitive conclusion".

Thank you for responding, not many people would risk that. It's against their Religion I guess.

 

[awitch]

Maybe because you haven't really considered, or looked deeper into computer programming!?

I have a BS in computer science and 20+ years experience in the IT industry.

THIS is why He sent His son Word into the world, to teach us to better guide our choices. I mean it's not hard to predict what our own teen children will do if we leave them home alone for a few days, especially for a week, right? We can give them instructions and even warnings, but until they make them choices, no telling what those will be until they make them.

The punishments we give to our children for their poor choices do not include drowning the neighborhood or setting them on fire for eternity. But that's just me.

I have, .. for years, and falls short of a scientific explanation. Like my first question is: "What medium, and time frame are the Big-Bang scientists in, when visualizing this 'singularity', .. or that cosmic inflation?

I can tell that you haven't or you would already know what happens to time in a singularity.

Again, what does the definition of scientific theory have to do with the Big Bang and the Evolution stories? I believe humanity has lost their ability to differentiate between science and science fiction! Every time I mention Evolution, you refer to it as science, .. why?

Are you serious?

So Biologists are real scientists, going only as far back in origins as Adam and Eve, they don't confuse humans with animals!?

Adam and Eve were not literal people and humans are animals.

That's because when it comes to Evolution, or the Big bang stories: "I cant accept because I don't have sufficient evidence to reach a definitive conclusion".

I think it's because you don't have the integrity to admit that your objection is solely based on your religious faith. You've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding the science and have shown no interested in even trying.

Do you want to ask a real challenging question regarding evolution and demonstrate I'm wrong at the same time?

 

[Arius]

I have a BS in computer science and 20+ years experience in the IT industry.

My statement still remains; you haven't looked deeper into it where you would see similarities of our computer worlds, and Gods Creation.

The punishments we give to our children for their poor choices do not include drowning the neighborhood or setting them on fire for eternity. But that's just me.

No, just set up 2 to 4 powerful 5G Microwave towers in every school yard to zap the children. Oh, I guess the years of accommodating to the 5G towers; Chem-trails are none existent either?

I can tell that you haven't or you would already know what happens to time in a singularity.

I didn't know Hafele and Keating entered one? Can you show me the atomic clocks that went through a black hole?
I hear black holes are everywhere, surely all kinds of experiments are being done on them, like a few trips to some close by ones to the ISS!?
I mean those genius NASA scientists are going out there and doing experiments in space are they not? Or just doing back flips, and advertising Bill Gates DMPA for the young sub-human female population by giving themselves "flue shots", and telling kindergartners how busy they are up there?

Notice how Commander Kelly keeps bouncing up and down, I mean for all those billions of dollars NASA gets a month, you'd think they could just use the ISS Zero-G planes for at least the News broadcast, instead of the cheap Green-screen and bungee cords!?

Are you serious?

Yes sir, black holes, quarks, muons, clip-ons, searching for other earth-like planets, aliens, Martians, vacuum space, gravity, planet-Tatooine, NASA CERN etc.;

NASA discovers 'Tatooine' planet orbiting two suns - CNN

.. these are all science fiction. You didn't actually believed any of this was actual science, did you?

Adam and Eve were not literal people and humans are animals.

There you go, .. see what I mean?
Humans are animals, .. oh yeah, don't forget that boys must be girls and girls must be boys too like Mr. Neri Oxman in order to bring in the New World without those of us labeled sub-humans, .. or animals.

I think it's because you don't have the integrity to admit that your objection is solely based on your religious faith. You've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding the science and have shown no interested in even trying.

Yes, true that I hold on to; faith built on evidence with substance (as the Bible teaches us) religiously. But cane we really call "truth" a religion?

Do you want to ask a real challenging question regarding evolution and demonstrate I'm wrong at the same time?

Yes sir, .. the one I have been asking for years now: Can any Evolutionist identify the species of at least ONE living "common ancestor" of the over eight million species we have on earth today, .. just one!?

In other words; the specific species of the Common Ancestor Dawkins is describing at (time 0:25) that he says "produced two branches, one of which went to us human animal apes (the picture of a white suburban housewife), and one of which went to chimpanzees, ..." What specific species is that "common ancestor"? We see it was produced by another "common ancestor" before that, which was produced by another before THAT, .. to infinitum.

Thank you.

 

[awitch]

At this point you're dropping names, talking about black holes and chem trails and all sorts of other things completely unrelated to evolution. And your disdain for science seems neatly wrapped in snark.

Personally, I don't care if you accept science or not; it doesn't affect my life. It might embarrass some of your fellow Christians, but that's not my problem either.

Do you really want to learn about evolution and how to ask actual challenging questions or do you just want to rant incoherently some more about the mean old scientists who don't agree with you're personal beliefs?

 

[Arius]

At this point you're dropping names, talking about black holes and chem trails and all sorts of other things completely unrelated to evolution. And your disdain for science seems neatly wrapped in snark.

Personally, I don't care if you accept science or not; it doesn't affect my life. It might embarrass some of your fellow Christians, but that's not my problem either.

Do you really want to learn about evolution and how to ask actual challenging questions or do you just want to rant incoherently some more about the mean old scientists who don't agree with you're personal beliefs?

The Christians have enough problems explaining their deities, .. their gods, that gave them tens of thousands of denominations.

I will ask again this last time, the one I have been asking for years now: Can any Evolutionist identify the species of at least ONE living "common ancestor" of the over eight million species we have on earth today, .. just one!?

In other words; the specific species of the Common Ancestor Dawkins is describing at (time 0:25) that he says "produced two branches, one of which went to us human animal apes (the picture of a white suburban housewife), and one of which went to chimpanzees, ..." What specific species is that "common ancestor"? We see it was produced by another "common ancestor" before that, which was produced by another before THAT, .. to the first amoeba in the primordial soup.

Again, thank you.

 

[awitch]

The Christians have enough problems explaining their deities, .. their gods, that gave them tens of thousands of denominations.

I will ask again this last time, the one I have been asking for years now: Can any Evolutionist identify the species of at least ONE living "common ancestor" of the over eight million species we have on earth today, .. just one!?

In other words; the specific species of the Common Ancestor Dawkins is describing at (time 0:25) that he says "produced two branches, one of which went to us human animal apes (the picture of a white suburban housewife), and one of which went to chimpanzees, ..." What specific species is that "common ancestor"? We see it was produced by another "common ancestor" before that, which was produced by another before THAT, .. to the first amoeba in the primordial soup.

Again, thank you.

I offered to help you understand despite a clear reluctance to put in any effort of your own. You can bang on your keyboard all day demanding answers, but let's be clear, this is not an interrogation. You've chosen to rant against science based on personal beliefs and if reinforcing the stereotype that Christians are uneducated and scientifically illiterate is your preference, then I'm more than happy to get out of your way.

If you change your mind and can express a genuine interest in learning what it's about, you know where you can find me.

 

[Arius]

I offered to help you understand despite a clear reluctance to put in any effort of your own. You can bang on your keyboard all day demanding answers, but let's be clear, this is not an interrogation. You've chosen to rant against science based on personal beliefs and if reinforcing the stereotype that Christians are uneducated and scientifically illiterate is your preference, then I'm more than happy to get out of your way.

If you change your mind and can express a genuine interest in learning what it's about, you know where you can find me.

Yes sir, I know where I can find you: "hiding" with the rest of the BB-Evolutionists.
You know very well why no Evolutionist is allowed to take on my question, because once you identify that "common ancestor" of ANY species that gave rise to two or more distinct species other than itself, would reveal the lie in the Evolution story. Eight million "common ancestors", not ONE is to be identified.

May the Lords name be praised, .. now all we need is more Christians to wake up and fight to get back science as God meant it to be observed, not the perverted millions and billions, and trillions of MK-ULTRA indoctrination:

 

[dlamberth]

You know very well why no Evolutionist is allowed to take on my question, because once you identify that "common ancestor" of ANY species that gave rise to two or more distinct species other than itself, would reveal the lie in the Evolution story. Eight million "common ancestors", not ONE is to be identified.

I think your question is dishonest. But that's just me.

As an aside with my Lover of God hat on, it's pretty clear to me that it's through the changing process of life which we call evolution that God Creates new life forms. The Universe is built on change.

 

[FredVB]

I'd like to make an argument for a good way to bear witness to the truth of the Trinity to nonbelievers who think that all religions are equally true (aka pluralists). I assume that you are either:
a) A Christian who both believes and understands the truth of the Trinity. You may find some nitpicky issues with some of my phrasing even. I ask that you focus on what you agree with or disagree with regarding the general explanation on how to bear witness to pluralist nonbelievers and apply your superior expertise about the Trinity to future evangelism.
b) A Christian who believes in the Trinity by faith, but admittedly doesn't fully understand it. This argument should work without having to defend to people exactly how the Trinity is true. It should provide others better understanding of what you mean when you say, "I just know!" (Nonbelievers don't get it when you say that.)
c) Not a Christian. This means you're not really in my intended audience. Hopefully, this message teaches you something about the truth of the Trinity as a way of exemplifying its own argument.

I feel the need to address that the Trinity, while important, is less core to Christianity than, say, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ or the grace of salvation.

This is true, the belief in the trinity of God is not an essential belief in salvation, the need for trust in the way of salvation is essential. That it is in Christ, as it had been prophesied, is important in testimony from believers. With coming to faith, trusting revelation from God that there would be is very important. With trusting the Bible for that, dealing with the trinity of God will be basically unavoidable.

 

[Arius]

I think your question is dishonest. But that's just me.

As an aside with my Lover of God hat on, it's pretty clear to me that it's through the changing process of life which we call evolution that God Creates new life forms. The Universe is built on change.

Please show where and why my question on the claims of Biological millions and billions of years of human Evolution is dishonest?
Are you including Biblical-spiritual evolution along with human biological evolution that labels humans as animals of the ape family?

 

[dlamberth]

Are you including Biblical-spiritual evolution along with human biological evolution that labels humans as animals of the ape family?

Take the word "Biblical" out, and I think you have something there.

 

[FredVB]

As an aside with my Lover of God hat on, it's pretty clear to me that it's through the changing process of life which we call evolution that God Creates new life forms. The Universe is built on change.

Are you including Biblical-spiritual evolution along with human biological evolution that labels humans as animals of the ape family?

Take the word "Biblical" out, and I think you have something there.

Without the Bible it looks like there is basis for the gradual evolution, though how could human mind, or even animal mind, come through evolution? I don't really think any have good answers for that. But the Bible has tremendous evidence for trusting it. With its account, though there is of course always change, there was the perfection in creation that was not long and drawn out, and death, and killing, only came after the fall from that perfection, with rebellion against God. Layering of rock sediments and fossilization of creatures that died were happening only after that in quick succession catastrophically.

 

[awitch]

Without the Bible it looks like there is basis for the gradual evolution, though how could human mind, or even animal mind, come through evolution?

The mind is a product of the brain. The brain is known to evolve through the usual evolutionary processes.

With its account, though there is of course always change, there was the perfection in creation that was not long and drawn out, and death, and killing, only came after the fall from that perfection, with rebellion against God.

If the alleged fall is an actual thing, then the world would never have been perfect in the first place, else the fall would not have happened.