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How to be saved and question

d taylor

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That has nothing to do with the post you are replying to.

Its a yes or no point. Either the 2 beliefs about Jesus are equivalent or they are not.
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Look take a person who is of the catholic religion. They believe Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, but if they have never believed in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. They remain an unbeliever who has not become a child of God.

Now the question is, can a person believe Jesus is The Son of God and remain and unbeliever. No I do not believe if a person believes Jesus is The Son of God, they can actually be an unbeliever. A believer is one who believes Jesus is The Son of God.

Now a person could have at one point believed Jesus is The Son of God, but no longer does. They still remain a born again child of God, even if they no longer believe Jesus is The Son of God.
 
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Guojing

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You are not addressing my point at all in this reply to my post.

Are those 2 beliefs about Jesus equivalent or not? Yes or no?

My post has nothing to do with
  1. Whether or not one is saved
  2. Whether or not one is a believer or unbeliever.
  3. Whether one is born again or not.
  4. Whether one is a child of God or not
  5. etc
 
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d taylor

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Because you question is not a simple yes and no answer.

If a person had absolute no knowledge of The Bible, Jesus, God and they started reading The Bible at The Gospel of John. They could become a born again child of God way before they came to and learned that Jesus died and was resurrected.
 
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Guojing

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That is saying no, they are not equivalent.
 
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David Lamb

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As Matthew 16 established, Peter could believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, without believing that he will die for his sins and rise again for his justification.

These 2 beliefs about Jesus are not equivalent.
Wait a minute, I thought we were discussing what John's gospel teaches. I agree that believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah/Christ is not the same as as believing He died on behalf of sinners who believe in Him and rose from their justification. But John's gospel includes accounts of Christ's death and resurrection, so when he says, "These are written that you may believe," Christ's death and resurrection are included in "these."
 
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Guojing

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I agree that believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah/Christ is not the same as as believing He died on behalf of sinners who believe in Him and rose from their justification.

Then we are in agreement.

But John's gospel includes accounts of Christ's death and resurrection, so when he says, "These are written that you may believe," Christ's death and resurrection are included in "these."

There is a difference between believing

Christ died because you crucified him, but he resurrected, therefore he is indeed the son of God/promised Messiah (Acts 2:36)

versus

Christ died for your sins and rose again for your justification (Romans 4:24-25)
 
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d taylor

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That is saying no, they are not equivalent.
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But then again another person (with no knowledge of The Bible, Jesus, God) reading John's Gospel. May not become a believer in Jesus, till they read the account of Jesus's death and resurrection Ch 19,20.

As John writes in John 20
And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The cross and resurrection is part of the 8 signs (miracles) John records for the reader. That when read should bring the reader to believe Jesus is The Christ, The Son of God. So they may believe in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation.
 
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David Lamb

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Of course there is a difference between Acts 2:36, said to unbelievers, and the letter to the church at Rome, which was addressed to Christians.
 
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Aaron112

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Now the question is, can a person believe Jesus is The Son of God and remain and unbeliever. No I do not believe if a person believes Jesus is The Son of God, they can actually be an unbeliever. A believer is one who believes Jesus is The Son of God.
Not so. Many remain lost, or remain unbelievers, unfaithful, while believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
Demons are the most obvious ones, but not the only ones.
 
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d taylor

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Not so. Many remain lost, or remain unbelievers, unfaithful, while believing that Jesus is the Son of God.
Demons are the most obvious ones, but not the only ones.
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So you are calling God's promise in The Bible a lie. That all who believe in Jesus receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

Eternal Life salvation was never meant for demons. So why bring them and what they believe into a discussion about how a human, from the blood line of Adam. Receives God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and becomes a born again child of God
 
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Guojing

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The cross and resurrection is part of the 8 signs (miracles) John records for the reader. That when read should bring the reader to believe Jesus is The Christ, The Son of God. So they may believe in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation.

There is a difference between believing

Christ died because you crucified him, but he resurrected, therefore he is indeed the son of God/promised Messiah (Acts 2:36)

versus

Christ died for your sins and rose again for your justification (Romans 4:24-25)
 
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Guojing

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Of course there is a difference between Acts 2:36, said to unbelievers, and the letter to the church at Rome, which was addressed to Christians.

You cannot preach Acts 2:36 to any unbeliever today.

Only the nation of Israel did the horrific act of crucifying their promised Messiah (Matthew 27:25, Acts 3:13-17).

You can only preach Romans 4:24-25 and 1 Cor 15:1-4 to them.
 
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Guojing

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So you are calling God's promise in The Bible a lie. That all who believe in Jesus receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

Your doctrine relies on this reasoning.

Premise: Since the gospel of John never mentioned following the Law as a requirement under the gospel of the kingdom
Conclusion: Therefore salvation under the gospel of the kingdom does not require following the Law and is thus a free gift.

You ignore what Jesus said in Matthew, Mark and Luke, as well as 1 John, by reasoning to yourself, "Those passages are not talking about salvation".

You are basically changing the premises to fit the conclusion that you already want to believe in.
 
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d taylor

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I have entertain your work based theology long enough, so this will be my last reply to you. So in the future if you quote a post of mine i will not reply.
 
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Guojing

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I have entertain your work based theology long enough, so this will be my last reply to you. So in the future if you quote a post of mine i will not reply.

This is not an airport, no need to announce your departure.

Just don't reply if you don't wish to
 
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d taylor

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The religion of Christianity is full of people who simply think God can not give them His free gift of His life. And bring the fallen away human, back into the family of God. By the means of belief in Jesus, God's Son.

The God they believe in, requires people to help out their God, by acts they do and placing themselves at a final judgement . In turn hoping their good out weighs their bad when they are judged. So then hoping they will be welcomed into the family of God.

Sad really sad
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Paul proclaims the gospel he preached and which resulted in people being saved:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

In short:

I declare unto you the gospel by which you are saved. Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.

That is what you have to accept, acknowledge, and confess.

"Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again."

I am surprised that even people will try to add to or subtract from this. It is so clear and in complete context.
If you see how you were lost, you will see why it is so easy to be saved. You were lost at birth by no fault of your own. The sins you committed from day one were merely evidence of your lost condition. You did nothing to be lost. You do (relatively) nothing to be saved. I have even stated that belief is nothing more than awareness of a fact and acting in accordance with that fact. Even Paul states that one maintains salvation by merely "remembering" these three facts.

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. It is just that hard. I am aware of at least one method of applying this salvation and I have used it while witnessing. IOWs, is there an easy way to apply this gospel?

1. God has made Jesus Lord and Christ of all. (Acts 2:26, 10:36)
2. As Lord of all, He is merciful to all who call on His name. (Rom 10:12)
3. Whoever calls on his name shall be saved. (Rom 10:13)

This is not a different gospel as described above in 1 Cor 15; this is just one way to apply this gospel.
 
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Wansvic

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Consider salvation requires sins to be remitted. Scripture reveals this occurs upon obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of JESUS. And receiving the indwelling presence of the Spirit is essential. According to Paul people who do not have the Spirit are not God's children. (Romans 8:9)

Jesus said, except one is born of water and Spirit they cannot SEE or ENTER into the kingdom. (John 3:3-5) Being born of water and Spirit requires believing in the one who made it possible; Jesus. He did that through His death, burial and resurrection.

Jesus said repentance and remission of sin (connection to water baptism) would be preached in His name to ALL nations, and would BEGIN in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) This was begun for those living in the NT after Jesus shed forth the Holy Spirit and the reality of being born again became possible for NT believers on the Day of Pentecost:

"Therefore (Jesus) being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Then Peter told them what they must do:
"...Repent, and be baptized (Water) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Spirit)
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..." Acts 2:33-42

As Jesus prophesied, the apostle's doctrine/gospel was carried forth and continues its journey into all nations. Those willing to believe and obey experience the NT rebirth spoken of by Jesus. See: John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16.


Consider the fact that the Apostle Paul was still carrying the same message some 20+ years after the initial message was presented at Pentecost:
"...Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve." Acts 19:1-7
 
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Brightfame52

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@Wansvic


Thats false, sins are forgiven by the shedding of the blood of Christ, His Obedience not mans. Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

God forgave sins for Christs sake, not mans being water baptized Eph 4:32


And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 
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Yarddog

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The Catholic Church teaches that we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

It's like Noah. He believed God and entered the Ark, when the rains came he had to stay in the Ark. When the Ark reached safety he and all within emerged to dry land.

The flood represents baptism, the Ark is the Church ( body of Christ). We believe God and are baptized into the body of Christ but we must believe and remain in the body of Christ so that we reach out salvation (heaven).
 
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