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However clothing doesn't always allow for this. If you happen to be larger or have large breasts it can be difficult to buy comfortable clothing that will not berevealing which is not tight around the breasts thus drawing attention to them. By the way this comment comes from what various women have posted in another thread on CF previously. I do however feel it is a very valid point and probably why in his wisdom God did not make specific rules regarding clothing.
Good grief! What about the Christian woman's responsibility toward her Christian brothers not to provide cause for them to stumble? It is selfishness that says, "I can dress any way I like! If you've got a problem with it, tough nuts!" There is nothing of Christian love in this kind of response. Godly love, on the other hand, takes pains to accomodate the sensitivities and weaknesses of others; it is careful to avoid giving offense wherever possible; it desires to edify rather than to provoke. A Christian man shouldn't have to approach his sister(s) in Christ as some kind of needy supplicant and "humbly request" that they alter their immodest clothing. They should care enough about the spiritual welfare of their brothers in Christ that they consider carefully the effect of their attire upon them and dress accordingly. Consider Paul's words concerning causing a brother in Christ to stumble:
There is ample research demonstrating that men are more visually stimulated than women. This is not a weakness; it is simply the way we are made. Certainly, Christian men should be exercising self-control and guarding against lustful thoughts, but they should expect the godly women in their church to be aiding them in this, not creating challenges to a pure thought life by provoking them visually with immodest dress.
Do you charge a blind person with clumsiness or carelessness when they stumble against something? No. Of course, being blind doesn't mean one must be stumbling over everything; the use of a cane, or a seeing-eye dog can help significantly in allowing a blind person to navigate the world without sight. But even with these tools, the blind person, being blind, is more susceptible to stumbling into things. They can take all the precautions possible and still bump into a wall or chair, or trip on a curb. And when they do we don't immediately condemn them as careless or clumsy; we understand that their blindness makes them more susceptible to such instances and so we compassionately make allowances for it. Thus, when we invite a blind man to dinner, we do all we can to accomodate his condition. We order our home so he is not likely to trip over anything and take his arm and guide him through the maze of our furnishings. This is just common courtesy. Likewise, when a man, who is by nature highly sensitive to visual stimuli, finds himself provoked to lustful thoughts by the immodest dress of a woman we expect him to take the necessary measures to avoid becoming lustful over her provocative attire. He may have to employ the cane of self-control and avert his eyes, or use the seeing-eye dog of Scripture, but if the man does stumble we ought not to be surprised given the nature of his condition. And just as we wouldn't (simply out of common courtesy) mine the floor of our home with things that might cause a blind visitor to our home to stumble, we ought not, out of love and concern for our Christian brothers, to mine the gathering of believers with women whose dress will cause them to stumble.
So are we all mind readers? No of course not. So just like in any other situation where you have a problem and need help you also in this situation need to ask for help. It should not be forced upon a person to assume especially if you are asking someone to be uncomfortable. When reading the passage from corinthians it seems clear in verse 13 that he is aware of the problem. How would one know if a brother thought eating this meat was wrong? How many christian guys go to the beach when they have a problem with lust? If it really is a problem then they should avoid places like the beach so they do not risk sinning. Yet if they are happy to go to the beach then they show no interest in overcoming.
Just as women are capable of dressing modestly out of a caring concern for their brothers in Christ.
Certainly, men are responsible for the path their eyes follow and the lines of thinking they pursue. But women can aid or hinder men in these areas; they can be a stumblingblock or a blessing. Paul the apostle makes it clear that godly love constrains us to consider others before ourselves and to sacrifice what we want for their sake. He was willing to forego ever eating meat again if it would prevent causing stumbling in another. He bent over backward to accomodate the weaknesses of others rather than saying, "You have a problem with me eating meat sacrificed to idols? Tough! If you don't like it, look away or go somewhere else. You're the one with the problem, not me!"
I suppose. It is no secret that men are visually cued-up, which, it seems to me, ought to be anticipated by women in the way they dress - especially in church.
Loving others in a godly fashion constantly involves making sacrifices - often uncomfortable ones - for the sake of others. If agape love were the order of the day in your thinking and in churches generally today, you would have a different attitude entirely.
What does going to the beach when you have lust issues have to do with the point at issue? My comments have nothing to do with a man indulging lust, but with women constraining themselves in the manner of their dress out of love and concern for their brothers in Christ.
I have never suggested that this is what women ought to do. I say at least twice in my last post that men are responsible for their thoughts and actions and ought to be striving to be self-controlled and pure. And while men are busy doing so, the Christian women around them ought to be aiding them in doing so in every way possible.
I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that anyone should expect others to "pander to their needs." There should, however, be the expectation between Christians that they will help each other sacrificially to walk righteously before God.
Strawman arguments don't work, if you want to be taken seriously and want people to discuss with you then don't argue against thuddingly obvious exaggerations of their claims or reasons. Or simply... if you want to be taken seriously, take others remarks seriously rather than simply arguing opportunistically... this remark from you above is far from taking other peoples reasons serious and responding fairly. This is indicative of a bit of arrogance and disregard. This is not a debate forum... it is a fellowship forum, debating is not allowed here, if you cannot fairly, in a friendly reasonable manner discuss with others then you should remain silent. This is a place to discuss things with others, not prove others wrong... debating is not allowed on this forum.
PSALM 103:11, Psalm130:7, PSALM 145:8, PSALM 69:13,16, PSALM 31:19, PSALM 147:11, LAMENTATIONS 3:19-35, PSALM 13:5, ROMANS 8:32-39 (NASB, NIV)
