How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[nobdysfool]

What? I'm sorry, but you guys say one thing and then the opposite later. I don't think you're all in agreement here, perhaps you should talk it all out amongst yourselves, because someone JUST said that Men do not have FREE WILL! TAlking about OBTUSE. Please, will someone make more sense and explain calvinism to me? I am getting all of these different answers! HERE's one by Rick Otto not too long ago.

Rick OttoIt would be a gross oversimplification to leave it at "sex".
Rather a loving intimacy is indicated as in Matthew where Jesus says "I never knew you" to some who had prophesied & cast out devils in His name.

I don't even try to prove "calvinism" whatever that is.
The only thing I have in common with Calvin is the "T.U.L.I.P."
I don't approve of his ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.
But predestination disproves the myth of "freedom" of our fallen wills.
And that supports Total sovereignity and Limited Atonement.
He predestined all of creation, good & bad:
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Do you have the idea that Calvinists all have to march in lock-step? Sorry to disappoint, but it just isn't so.


As for "free will", please understand that Calvinists do not in general believe in a truly free will for man, i.e. a will that is unrestricted or unaffected by the fallen nature and state of man.

That is not to say that we deny that men make choices, but we do say that men choose according to their strongest desires, and according to their natures. That effectively precludes the idea that fallen man can of his own will choose to receive Christ and be saved, seeing that scripture teaches that fallen men hate God, and are unwilling to come to Him.

 

[LJSGM]

Do you have the idea that Calvinists all have to march in lock-step? Sorry to disappoint, but it just isn't so.


As for "free will", please understand that Calvinists do not in general believe in a truly free will for man, i.e. a will that is unrestricted or unaffected by the fallen nature and state of man.

That is not to say that we deny that men make choices, but we do say that men choose according to their strongest desires, and according to their natures. That effectively precludes the idea that fallen man can of his own will choose to receive Christ and be saved, seeing that scripture teaches that fallen men hate God, and are unwilling to come to Him.

ok, please, no one answers ANY of my questions (except yours just now), can you answer this one as well?

Why doesn't God save all men based on the premise that no one can chose Christ? Does it not say that God so LOVED the WORLD?

 

[cygnusx1]

ok, please, no one answers ANY of my questions (except yours just now), can you answer this one as well?

Why doesn't God save all men based on the premise that no one can chose Christ? Does it not say that God so LOVED the WORLD?

B. B. Warfield :

‘Persist in reading the text thus distributively, making "the world" mean each and every man that lives on the earth, and what, after all, does it declare that the love of God has done for them? Just open a way of salvation before men, give them an opportunity to save themselves...Is this, then, the measure of the immeasurable love of God – that He barely opens a pathway to salvation before sinful men, and stops right there; does nothing further for them – leaving it to their own unassisted initiation whether they will walk in it or not? Surely this cannot be the teaching of the text; and that, for many reasons, – primary among which is this: that we all know the love of God has done much more than this for multitudes of the children of men, namely, has not merely opened a way of salvation before them, but has actually saved them...God did not then only so love the world as to give it a bare chance of salvation: He so loved the world that He saved the world.’

 

[Hismessenger]

USGM.

Who gives you your faith?

hismessenger

 

[LJSGM]

B. B. Warfield :

‘Persist in reading the text thus distributively, making "the world" mean each and every man that lives on the earth, and what, after all, does it declare that the love of God has done for them? Just open a way of salvation before men, give them an opportunity to save themselves...Is this, then, the measure of the immeasurable love of God – that He barely opens a pathway to salvation before sinful men, and stops right there; does nothing further for them – leaving it to their own unassisted initiation whether they will walk in it or not? Surely this cannot be the teaching of the text; and that, for many reasons, – primary among which is this: that we all know the love of God has done much more than this for multitudes of the children of men, namely, has not merely opened a way of salvation before them, but has actually saved them...God did not then only so love the world as to give it a bare chance of salvation: He so loved the world that He saved the world.’

Matthew 7 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


I was hoping that nobdysfool would answer my question.

 

[cygnusx1]

"But what is the love of God to which John 3:16 gives this prominence? Does it have reference to the elect only or to all men? Some have answered that its immediate purpose has to do with neither; because, they say, ‘the world’ here does not have numerical so much as ethical significance: it stands for ‘the evil, the darkness, the sinner’. God so loved those who are utterly contrary to himself that he gave his Son to die for them!
As B. B.Warfield has written on the love of God in this text: It is not that it is so great that it is able to extend over the whole of a big world: it is so great that it is able to prevail over the Holy God’s hatred and abhorrence of sin. For herein is love, that God could love the world – the world that lies in the evil one: that God who is all-holy and just and good, could so love this world that He gave His only begotten Son for it, – that He might not judge it, but that it might be saved. "


I Murray

 

[cygnusx1]

Matthew 7 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


I was hoping that nobdysfool would answer my question.

he probably will

 

[LJSGM]

USGM.

Who gives you your faith?

hismessenger

Faith is a gift from God, just as Jesus says...
John 12

32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

EVeryone has been called, but not everyone answers.

 

[cygnusx1]

Faith is a gift from God, just as Jesus says...
John 12

32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

EVeryone has been called, but not everyone answers.

you can't seriously believe the Amalekites and the Canaanites have been called ?

God said of His people Israel "you ONLY have I *known of all the nations.


*(loved with intimacy)


Amos 3:1-2 Hear this word that Yahwhe hath spoken against you, O children of Israel...
...You only have I known of ALL the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.



compare ;

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)​

 

[cygnusx1]

Faith is a gift from God, just as Jesus says...
John 12

32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

EVeryone has been called, but not everyone answers.

"all men" ?


mmmmmmmmmm ,

"Does God want all those who believe already? To believe? No! They already have believed! " genez

 

[heymikey80]

This is based on what scripture? You've once again made an assumption here. Just because he loved us before we were made does NOT prove that this love is NOT based on who they are or what they will do.

in order that God’s purpose of election might be established, not because of actions but because of him who calls— she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11-13
​

It is a reference to the special love with which He chose His Elect, for His own reasons and not based on their foreseen actions, although He certainly knows those as well. If God chooses based on their foreseen actions, He is rewarding right behavior, and actually creates a paradox.

He CHOSE them, it does not say HE CREATED THEM that way. CHOSEN=CHOICE. WE are his CHOICE, CHOICE is a DECISION, but what does he base his decision on?

in order that God’s purpose of election might be established, not because of actions but because of him who calls— she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11-13

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:14-18
​

Note also, God didn't create people with something in them to warrant their salvation. God Himself moved in those He chose to see, seek, and embrace His Son.

What is this paradox that you speak of? Can you explain please.

If you're looking to the person's actions to save him you can't be not looking to the person's actions to save him.

 

[Hismessenger]

USGM,

you answered your own question. Faith is also the gift of God just as salvation is. He grants faith and salvation to whom he chooses.

hismessenger

 

[LJSGM]

USGM,

you answered your own question. Faith is also the gift of God just as salvation is. He grants faith and salvation to whom he chooses.

hismessenger

Yes, and he wills/choses EVERYONE to recieve it, but very few actually do.

Revelation 3

20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

 

[LJSGM]

1 Timothy 2

4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

 

[cygnusx1]

1 Timothy 2

4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

So far the arguement runs like this :

It is said that because we are commanded to pray for "all men" that God wills the salvation of the same ... "all men"

yet if it can be shown from God's word that God forbids prayer to some men , then the meaning of "all men " in 1 Timothy 2 will need to be correctly understood as there are many ways of understanding "all men" without it meaning every single man , women and child.


For the set pas, (Nominative singular masculine of which pantas is the Accusative masculine plural) we find the following meaning elements listed in Louw & Nida (Semantic Domain GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON: United Bible Societies 1st edit. 1988)

pas a. all
b. any
c. total
d. whole
e. every kind of

Now a) above will unparcel to reveal: A1: All without exception, and ...
A2 All without distinction

And e) above will unparcel to reveal: E1 some of all sorts, and
E2 all manner of

Now which of these meanings did the Holy Ghost intend us to take as being the correct one to fit 1 Tim. 2:4? What do we do? Shall we say, Oh, I like this one, I’ll make it this one? Or, I feel led to A1, I’m certain that’s what God intended, I feel the witness within me? The Arminians insist on A1. On what grounds?
But now, what about the context? And what about the whole analogia fidei, by which we are to be guided when interpreting any difficult text such as this? Well first, the whole scope and tenor of Scripture shout that the Arminian interpretation A1 will put the text in contradiction to the Divine decrees. Knowing this, the Arminians do their utmost to extract as much anti-Calvinist mileage out of this text as they possibly can.

But manifestly, meaning elements e), and E1, and E2 will fit beautifully, and eliminate any contradiction with the rest of Scripture. That is, that God "will have all manner of men to be saved". In an age like the 1st Cent. AD, long before the rise of egalitarian democracies, when society was heavily stratified socially, and racial prejudices inflamed, it would have been vitally important to draw attention to the fact that God’s salvation was not only for one racial group, (the Jews, for instance, and much of the New Testament addresses precisely that question) or for one class of Society. Not only peasants, and slaves, but even middle class professionals and even rulers were to be addressed with the Gospel ("every creature", was emphasized, Mark 16:15). It was important to emphasize that "some of all sorts" of people were to be saved, by the Divine decree. And in historical practice, that is precisely how it has worked out, not all men without exception, but some of all sorts.

Now, it remains to examine the immediate context to the verse concerned. Notice how the phrase "all men" is coupled not only to the phrase "to be saved", but also to the clause: "to come unto the knowledge of the truth". In fact, in the Greek the coupling is closer than in the English. So it is God’s will that "all men" come "unto the knowledge of the truth" as well as that they be saved. Manifestly, they cannot be saved, without first coming unto the knowledge of the truth. (Rom. 10:14). And equally manifest is the fact that down through all the Old Testament period, and through the New Testament period, it has not been the will of God that "all men without exception" should come "unto the knowledge of the truth", but it has manifestly and indubitably been His will that "all manner of men", or "all kinds of men" should so come, and be saved. Some indeed, as Saint John says, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9 and cf. Rev. 11:9). Not all without exception.

Let the reader judge, what about all the billions of human beings absolutely excluded from the knowledge of the Gospel, and therefore salvation, for millennia? The millions of pre-Columbian America, the vast billions of China, and the East, and the manifold tribes of Africa ... all precluded from viewing the Gospel dispensation for most of the history of the world. Which interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:3-4 fits with reality.

But this is not all. Again looking at the immediate context of our verse we see in verse one preceding it the phrase "all men" used by the apostle again. The same Greek words are used as in verse 4 except for a change in the flexions for case endings. The apostle exhorts us to pray for "all men", an impossible task, if "all without exception is meant", for we are not allowed to pray for the dead, or for those who have committed the unpardonable sin. (I John 5:16). The Apostle makes it clear in verse two that by "all" in verse one he means "all kinds of" men, when he specifies that prayers should be made even for kings and all those in authority, that is, for those even of that exalted type of men who in most instances in those days were enemies that persecuted Christians, but from amongst whom God was pleased to save some.

We conclude therefore that the Holy Ghost wrote by the apostle that God willed "all kinds of men" to be saved. The interpretation is in beautiful harmony with the analogia fidei, the context and all the sound principles of exegesis, and the science of linguistics. A threefold cord is not quickly broken. (Eccl. 4:12).


http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=312

 

[LJSGM]

you can't seriously believe the Amalekites and the Canaanites have been called ?

God said of His people Israel "you ONLY have I *known of all the nations.


*(loved with intimacy)


Amos 3:1-2 Hear this word that Yahwhe hath spoken against you, O children of Israel...
...You only have I known of ALL the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.



compare ;

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)​

Notice how he says "ye that work iniquity"

also...

John 12

31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Jesus says after the ransom has been paid and after he is lifted up. Where does he speak of those who are already dead?

 

[cygnusx1]

Notice how he says "ye that work iniquity"

also...

John 12

31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Jesus says after the ransom has been paid and after he is lifted up. Where does he speak of those who are already dead?

then clearly you understand that "all men" does not mean all men without exception!

good!

 

[cygnusx1]

Ver. 4. Who will have all men to be saved, &c.]

The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved;

and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable:

nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in #1Ti 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones.


Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also
come to the knowledge of the truth: of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him, and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus; not merely to a notional knowledge of it, which persons may arrive unto, and not be saved, but a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it; and all that are saved are brought to such a knowledge, which is owing to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God, who hides the knowledge of Gospel truths from the wise and prudent, and reveals them to babes: whence it appears, that it is not his will with respect to every individual of mankind; that they should thus come to the knowledge of the truth; for was it his will they should, he would, no doubt, give to every man the means of it, which he has not, nor does he; he suffered all nations to walk in their own ways, and overlooked their times of ignorance, and sent no message nor messenger to inform them of his will; he gave his word to Jacob, and his statutes unto Israel only; and the Gospel is now sent into one part of the world, and not another; and where it does come, it is hid to the most; many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie, and few are savingly and experimentally acquainted with the truths of the Gospel; though all that are saved are brought to the knowledge of such truths as are necessary to salvation; for they are chosen to it through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/GILL1.HTM

 

[nobdysfool]

then clearly you understand that "all men" does not mean all men without exception!

good!

They will yield on that point where it is unavoidable, but then run right back to it, when it fits with their emotional, man-made, "we have to save the world for Jesus" doctrine. The logical disconnect is unseen by them. They just can't conceive of how God could allow many to die unsaved, and then instead of digging into the Word, they blame Calvinists, and whoever and whatever they can blame, for the failure of God's Will to be done, thinking that it's God's declarative Will that all men without exception be saved, and then leave the fulfillment of that to only a portion of mankind, only to blame them for thwarting God's Will, rather than understanding that God is the one who decides who will be saved, not man.

 

[LJSGM]

in order that God’s purpose of election might be established, not because of actions but because of him who calls— she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11-13​

I feel as if I have to repeat myself numberous times... but oh well. ​

NO ONE will recieve eternal life because of their deeds, because we ALL (yes, even you) fall short of God righteous requirements, in that we have all sinned and fallen short. It is because of God's mercy and Jesus atonement that we recieve eternal life. Because of Him who CALLS, and he calls ALL men (why on earth would he call people randomly). Not by birth, or because you're a Jew, but by faith he has mercy. ​

Why don't you read through to chapter 11 in Romans with the idea that Paul is speaking about Israel and election by faith? It might open your eyes. ​

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:14-18​

Paul is saying, even though God made a covenant with Israel, he can have Mercy and compassion on the gentiles too.​

Note also, God didn't create people with something in them to warrant their salvation. God Himself moved in those He chose to see, seek, and embrace His Son.​

It's correct to say that nobody has anything in them that warrants their salvation, but then you jump to the conclusion that God choses to seek only a select few based on?...How good he created them? This is still boasting, how is this any better?​

If you're looking to the person's actions to save him you can't be not looking to the person's actions to save him.

Revelation 20

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Everyone will be judged according to what they have done, and everyone will be condemn because of what they have done, except those that have the blood of lamb over their door, those that chose him and repented of their sins, He will have mercy on.

Lets say that there are a few hundred people in a prison that are condemned to die. The judge comes around and tries to save as many as he can from death by making them usefully and taking them out to serve him in his house. Does he pick people randomly? Or does he chose to have mercy on those that repent and are glad to serve him and leaves the ones that hate him?