How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[LJSGM]

then clearly you understand that "all men" does not mean all men without exception!

good!

Yes, but he gives the exception, you don't have to add to it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes, but he gives the exception, you don't have to add to it.

you yourself have given the exception (added to it no less than I)

 

[LJSGM]

you yourself have given the exception (added to it no less than I)

the exception: "when I am lifted up" "now" I will draw all men to my self. HOw did I add to it?

 

[cygnusx1]

the exception: "when I am lifted up" "now" I will draw all men to my self. HOw did I add to it?

by the same method as me , by seeing it as not meaning "all men" without exception ......... your arguement is that Christ is not drawing all men , BUT ONLY those after Christ was crucified , (which is certainly restricted , and going even further than me )

 

[LJSGM]

by the same method as me , by seeing it as not meaning "all men" without exception ......... your arguement is that Christ is not drawing all men , BUT ONLY those after Christ was crucified , (which is certainly restricted , and going even further than me )

but my exception is shown, yours is an assumption.

 

[cygnusx1]

but my exception is shown, yours is an assumption.

yours is the assumption , you assume it means every single person after the cross ! where you have already conceeded ALL MEN is not all without exception

while I believe that God draws some men to Christ even before the cross , otherwise only men after the cross would be saved by Christ ...... Christ is the Alpha and Omega appearing in both testaments drawing men to himself .

after the cross this was written ;

Rom 9 Verse 18. "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth."

 

[cygnusx1]

In Matthew 10:22 our Master says: "and you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake...Logically, there would be no other Christian in the world because all would hate the disciples. Also logically, if our Lord did not exaggerate or lied or tried to spread fear among His followers, and the word all means all without exception (which is in every translation of the Bible by the way), then you and I are guilty of hating the poor followers of our Lord. Does that make sense to you?

 

[LJSGM]

yours is the assumption , you assume it means every single person after the cross ! where you have already conceeded ALL MEN is not all without exception

while I believe that God draws some men to Christ even before the cross , otherwise only men after the cross would be saved by Christ ...... Christ is the Alpha and Omega appearing in both testaments drawing men to himself .

after the cross this was written ;

Rom 8 Verse 18. "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth."

you mean romans 9:18

 

[LJSGM]

In Matthew 10:22 our Master says: "and you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake...Logically, there would be no other Christian in the world because all would hate the disciples. Also logically, if our Lord did not exaggerate or lied or tried to spread fear among His followers, and the word all means all without exception (which is in every translation of the Bible by the way), then you and I are guilty of hating the poor followers of our Lord. Does that make sense to you?

How then would he say that he draws all men if he really does draw all men? He would say "I draw all men" If your assumption were true, wouldn't he rather say "I draw all believers" or "I will draw all that are mine"? So, yours is an assumption, plain and simple. and Yes, perhaps he really does draw all men, maybe there isn't an exception, I admit that I don't know about men that were already dead before his ressurection.

 

[cygnusx1]

you mean romans 9:18

 

[cygnusx1]

How then would he say that he draws all men if he really does draw all men? He would say "I draw all men" If your assumption were true, wouldn't he rather say "I draw all believers" or "I will draw all that are mine"? So, yours is an assumption, plain and simple. and Yes, perhaps he really does draw all men, maybe there isn't an exception, I admit that I don't know about men that were already dead before his ressurection.

1. you have already submitted all men doesn't mean all without exception .......

2. when Christ said "you will be hated by all men " , he clearly expected you to understand a simple truth ; "all without distinction , NOT all without exception."

you started well by agreeing all men doesn't mean everyone , then you ingnore your progress and go back to all men must mean all men (after thye cross)

 

[cygnusx1]

"ALL" is another good Bible word that is seriously misunderstood by many students of Scripture, for most people assume that it is a word that is totally unlimited, but such is not the case at all. Not only is it not unlimited in its meaning in some of its usages, it is not absolutely unlimited in any of its usages, and to think so is to show a tragic ignorance of its grammatical usage.
Sadly many people are ruled more by cute little ditties that appeal to their blind prejudices than they are by infallible truth and the established laws of correct grammar that must always enter into any right understanding of Scripture. Some such people like to say that "All means all, and that is all that all means," as if this were part of the engravings in stone at Sinai. This is an asinine statement for one never defines any term by the term itself. It is meant to make seemingly foolish any departure from that which it is supposed to establish so that no one would dare dispute this statement.


This is not a matter of no consequence, for many people deceive themselves into believing that they are included in the occasional use of "all" in some of the texts that have to do with the atonement of Christ. They do so though they do not conform to the character of those for whom Christ is said to die. As we have said earlier many people play into the eager hands of Universalists —those that believe that everyone without exception, including even Satan, is going to be saved eventually. And they are easily overcome by them because they have imbibed an erroneous application of the words "all" or "world," both of which are generally clearly limited in their meanings.

Many people erroneously assume that "all" is consistently used of every human being without exception. That is, they use it in the absolute sense as allowing no exceptions. But in doing so they show an abysmal ignorance of both Greek and English grammar.
Grammatically "all" is used in only three ways: (1) As a pronoun. (2) As an adjective. Or, (3) As an adverb. But in whichever way it is used it cannot stand alone, but refers to the part of speech that it defines or modifies, and by which it is limited. Hence, in any context, it is limited in its application to that noun, pronoun, verb, adjective or adverb that it modifies. Now it is readily acknowledged that the word that it modifies is not always expressed. Sometimes the word is only implied, and the context must determine what it is. But never does the word alone mean or refer to all mankind without exception unless the governing word does. But many make the very serious mistaken assumption that "all" automatically refers to all mankind in many contexts.

In most instances in the Bible the context itself will show that this word is limited in its application to a distinct class of beings. We must always allow the context to interpret the application of any given word, for if we do not, we shall be guilty of "going beyond what is written," and therefore teaching falsehood.
This principle is most often violated in these last degenerate times when so many have departed from the faith of Baptists of the past, in regard to the extent of the atonement of Christ. This incorrect view was relatively unknown among Baptists until about two centuries ago when "evangelists" and " soul-winners," both terms of rare usage in Scripture, came on the scene. These men seem to want to glorify themselves as great men of God when most of them are seriously defective on many of the elements of "The Faith that was once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).

This doctrinal compromise is often foretold as coming to past in the last days before the Lord’s return (2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 4:3-4; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 1 John 4:1-6). So much so, in fact, that Jesus Himself questioned whether at His return He would even be able to find "the Faith" (Greek) on earth (Luke 18:8). These men of shallow understanding of doctrinal truth are mainly to blame for making the extent of the atonement more extensively than Scripture does. And their extensive influence over others because of the prominence that the doctrinally unsound religious world gives them has led many to accept their views without studying the Scriptures.

The question as to whom Jesus came to save is not hard to determine if we but let Scripture speak. The very first reference to Jesus’ saving work—and first mentions are often the most defining—is in Matthew 1:21, which tells us why this One was to be called "Jesus." "For He shall save HIS people from their sins." That is clear enough, isn’t it? Nor is this out of harmony with other passages on the subject. When the subject of the propitiation—a sacrifice made to God to appease His wrath and to reinstate people in His favor, a term that no one doubts has to do with the atonement it is shown to be limited solely to believers (Rom. 3:24-26). None but believers have any part in this sacrifice that Jesus made for He is a propitiation only through faith.


http://www.pbministries.org/Theolog...trong Doctrine/strong_doctrine_appendix_4.htm

 

[cygnusx1]

Much of the false doctrine concerning a general atonement and a universal salvation stem from the failure to understand the limited nature of the words "all" and "world." In the case of "all" the misunderstanding stems almost entirely from ignorance of the grammatical usage of the word, and the substitution in the place of proper usage of the word, of a preconceived meaning and application of the word. Always and without exception "all" modifies a noun, pronoun, verb, adjective or adverb, and is limited to that word, and it is never used with "men" in a salvation context.

Having said all this, it is also necessary to notice another way in which "all" is used in Scripture. Most people assume without reason that it is always used absolutely—all without exception, but though it is sometimes so used, it is commonly used in a generic sense—all without distinction, that is, "all kinds." Many appearances of this word can only be understood in this sense, as in Matthew 3:5 where "all" cannot be understood in the absolute sense. See also John 11:47-53 where the "all" that would believe on Him could not be used in an absolute sense, for the Pharisees themselves were excepted. But the inspired comment on this shows that the "all" were the "children of God scattered abroad" the elect.

That this is generally the sense when redemption is in view is proven by what we read in Revelation 5:9. For there the redeemed are shown to be "all kinds," not all without exception, for the redeemed are from "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" —all kinds of people. Conversely, Revelation 20:11-15 shows great multitudes of people that are eternally lost and the reason given is that their names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (v. 15. Cf. Rev. 17:8).

This view of the redemption of the Saviour works no hindrance to the work of evangelism of those that correctly understand it, for the command is to "preach the Gospel to every creature" that we have opportunity to (Mark 16:15). It is the Holy Spirit’s work alone to make application of the Gospel and enable one to believe it. But a correct view will hinder presumptuous sinners from thinking that they have a free pass into heaven regardless of how they live and however they may remain in unbelief. It is to be greatly feared that marry people, by making the Lord’s redemptive work broader than Scripture does, encourage sinners to continue in their unbelief on the presumption that Jesus died for them, when they give no evidence of being the ones for whom Jesus died. The universal statement of hope of everlasting life is given only to those that will believe on the Saviour. To all else there is the threat of the wrath of God.

http://www.pbministries.org/Theolog...trong Doctrine/strong_doctrine_appendix_4.htm

 

[LJSGM]

They will yield on that point where it is unavoidable, but then run right back to it, when it fits with their emotional, man-made, "we have to save the world for Jesus" doctrine. The logical disconnect is unseen by them. They just can't conceive of how God could allow many to die unsaved, and then instead of digging into the Word, they blame Calvinists, and whoever and whatever they can blame, for the failure of God's Will to be done, thinking that it's God's declarative Will that all men without exception be saved, and then leave the fulfillment of that to only a portion of mankind, only to blame them for thwarting God's Will, rather than understanding that God is the one who decides who will be saved, not man.

Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Where does it say that God created them wicked? He gave them over to their DESIRES. He gave them over to their own wicked wills! Those that follow their own wicked wills follow their own DESTRUCTION.
Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[cygnusx1]

Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Where does it say that God created them wicked? He gave them over to their DESIRES. He gave them over to their own wicked wills! Those that follow their own wicked wills follow their own DESTRUCTION.
Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

where does nbf say "God created men wicked " ?

 

[LJSGM]

where does nbf say "God created men wicked " ?

believe me, it has been said.

It has also been said that God does not give us over to our own wills, but only his will done, so that everything that is our will is God's will, so that what we do, God has really willed it. Does this make any sense?

 

[cygnusx1]

believe me, it has been said.

It has also been said that God does not give us over to our own wills, but only his will done, so that everything that is our will is God's will, so that what we do, God has really willed it. Does this make any sense?

pardon me , but , in order to be clear and to illiminate all false claims I will ask you for quotes , thankyou!

if it "has been said" then finding the exact quotes shouldn't prove too difficult....... no i regret to say , I don't believe you , but I am more than willing tio be proved wrong.

it is one thing to say God created wicked men , it is quite another to say God created the wickedness in men...... which is false.

 

[LJSGM]

We really only have three options here, and some refuse to chose one of them. You either believe...

1. that God created men good and evil, and he destroys the wicked men that he created that way for a show of glory.

2.God choses people randomly to be saved, because he neither choses them on merit, or because he created them that way.

or

3. That God gives us over to our own wills and our own destruction, and that men are the cause of their own wickedness. God saves those that repent of their wickedness and believe in him.

The scriptures point to the third being true.

 

[cygnusx1]

We really only have three options here, and some refuse to chose one of them. You either believe...

1. that God created men good and evil, and he destroys the wicked men that he created that way for a show of glory.

2.God choses people randomly to be saved, because he neither choses them on merit, or because he created them that way.

or

3. That God gives us over to our own wills and our own destruction, and that men are the cause of their own wickedness. God saves those that repent of their wickedness and believe in him.

The scriptures point to the third being true.

number 1 ......

2 is error

3 is only one side of the truth , thus a half truth at best........

‘Can we possibly, without utter absurdity, maintain that there first existed in anyone the good virtue of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his heart of stone? How can we say this, when all the time this heart of stone itself signifies precisely a will of the hardest kind, a will that is absolutely inflexible against God? For if a good will comes first, there is obviously no longer a heart of stone.’


Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 29



​

‘For we are now speaking of the desire for goodness. If they want to say that this begins from ourselves and is then perfected by God, let them see how they can answer the apostle when he says, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)’​

 

[Markea]

I hadn't heard that twist 'till now.

Well, if you consider pointing out the obvious to be a twist, then so be it. You're the one who has read something into the context that simply is not there.. because nowhere in scripture do we find your claim that God hated Esau before he was even born.. it's a calvinistic twist..

Usualy the attack on that verse takes the form of "he meant Esau as a people, not as an udividual" which doesn't eliminate predestinate, rather it disseminates it.

All one should do is look at the context of the portion and not neglect the preceeding portions which led up to it. Romans 9 is speaking about God's elective purposes.. ie, how He actually selects a people.. and in the context of the portion, it speaks of the ELDER SERVING THE YOUNGER.. nothing to do with God hating Esau before he was born, that's your claim.

Here's the problem with the way you read it:
You've neglated the defining context by ignoring the prededing verses...
10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

AND I happen to agree with what the scriptures are declaring in this portion pertaining to ELECTION. That the ELDER shall serve the YOUNGER.. that's what election (or God's selection) is all about.

It's about ALL in Adam (the elder man) being servant to CHRIST (the younger man), and being justified freely. This is consistent with the previous chapters of Romans which basically explained the same thing.. that there are NONE righteous.. and that NOW the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD by FAITH in Jesus Christ is come UNTO ALL and UPON ALL those that believe.

As a real life example.. God did not selct me as a Christian because of my Adamic nature.. but because I trusted in Christ (the Last Adam) for the forgiveness of my sins. My older man (adamic nature) SERVES my new nature (Christ in me)..

That's election... or selection...

God does not elect any person IN ADAM.. He elects (or selects) those who place their faith and trust in CHRIST, the LAST ADAM.

It has been said that the FATHER selects, the SON saves, and that the SPIRIT seals..

Now, if you'd like to continue in your claim (or twist) that God hated Esau before he was born, then that's your prerogative.. although it's certainly not a scriptural one.. it's merely a calvinistic one.